Originally Posted by block30

Do you see yourself encouraging your son to fly professionally?

Originally Posted by Sunvox

Definition of capitalism (n)

Bing Dictionary
cap·i·tal·ism
[ káppit'l ězzəm ]

1. free-market system: an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, characterized by a free competitive market and motivation by profit.

I, for one, think most Americans would be loathe to give up weekends, holidays, paid vacation, unemployment insurance, disability insurance, and a whole host of other benefits all of which came from the hard work of union organizers that worked under threat of death to themselves and their families during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Not until Milton Friedman came along in the late 1970s did we, as hard working Americans, think that profit motivation should surpass all other considerations. Today even the lowly ERJ pilot will espouse a capitalistic mantra that market economics are the savior of the world, and unions are the devil's own spawn. Do you really WANT to work like a dog and have no respect from the managers or do you just think that that is your only choice because if you don't someone else will?

Originally Posted by Lab Rat

Why are you blaming capitalism? Do you think the antithesis to capitalism - socialism and communism - is the better alternative? And by the way, labor unions operate on capitalistic principles just as much as any corporation. Would you ever turn down a dollar more in your hourly wage, or would you ever reach a point in which you would turn it down because you are not "greedy"?


First, I could care less about getting "respect" from any manager. The point of any career is to exchange a skill set for a wages and benefits that I feel is commensurate for the time I'm willing to give to them. In other words, my feelings are not hurt because I do not get hugs and kisses from my boss.

Second, have you ever wondered why most airlines pay their pilots the wages they do for the schedules they work while other industries offer their respective employees better wages and schedules for their skills? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that 20,000+ people compete for less than 500 job openings and are willing to do it for practically nothing while accepting lousy schedules. Don't believe me? Check out how many times your typical pilot will complain about his or her job and then, in the same breath say something like "beats working in a cubicle" or "this is the best job in the world." Don't blame the managers for taking advantage of a buyers market - you all do it to yourselves.

1. free-market system: an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, characterized by a free competitive market and motivation by profit.

Did you notice the phrase "private ownership" in the above definition? No corporation exists for the sole purpose of providing you with a job. If you like what they have to offer than agree to work for them. If not, then go somewhere else. Once you drop your entitlement attitude and realize the world does not owe you everything you desire, then and only then will this make sense to you.

Originally Posted by scambo1

Interesting treatise despite the errors.

Labor unions are by definition socialist.

Free market capitalism does not actually exist outside of sole proprietorships or mom and pop operations - and that really isn't free market. What we really have in the airline industry (and most others), is corporate capitalism where the government and corporations collude and, in America at least, roughly achieve what Marx couldn't.

You trade your free time for dollars, you sell your life, for your wage. Depending upon how you value yourself and how long it takes you to come to this realization will help shape your path. It really is surprising, toward the end of working life, how equal everyone in the population is/are unless they screwed it up.

Originally Posted by Lab Rat

Points well taken.


yes, on the one hand they are socialist in the sense that you, for lack of a better phrase, sign your rights away when you join one. They set the rules and you need to follow them regardless of how you may feel about it - good, bad, or indifferent.


No, they are socialist because they are "collectives".



However, labor unions do operate under the laws of capitalism as well. Internally, their revenue must exceed their expenses in order to survive. They do have the advantage of raising dues in order to raise revenue, which is to say the price of belonging to the union. But, if the dues are raised too much and enough people refuse to pay them then either the union dissolves or is replaced by another one.

When it comes time to negotiate it is done under the laws of capitalism. Both sides come to the table and give-and-take until both sides come up with something they can live with. The company wants to preserve their bottom line as much as feasible, and the union wants to gain as much money, benefits, and quality of life for it's members. Both are driven by greed to some extent and neither are exempt.



Did you mean to say crony capitalism? I would agree that crony-capitalism is alive and well today, and I would also say that I don't believe crony-capitalism is true capitalism at all.

Originally Posted by scambo1

Crony capitalism is a coined phrase that implies collusion.

Originally Posted by scambo1

I want my son to do what makes him happy and gives him work fulfillment. I'm not really steering him in any direction, at least not right now. Right now, he wants to be a policeman or firefighter...we all did at his stage in life.

Originally Posted by ForeverFO

B.S. - The problem isn't pilot whimpiness, it's USA bankruptcy laws and above all, the RLA.

These two tools give management complete and supreme power to use as needed to gut contracts and impoverish pilots. When management can unilaterally dictate pay and work rules, and our only tools (strike and/or slowdown) are declared illegal by the courts, bought and paid for by airline executives... then we are screwed.

Unions can do very little so long as the RLA remains the law of the land. A job action is our only option to influence negotiations, and that tool has been removed from our tool chest.

Originally Posted by RJSAviator76

B.S. right back at ya. Here we go again.... blame EVERYONE and everything else.

Some things should be sacred. Airline pension gutted? Your flying outsourced against you? Suspension of Service or the so-called "ALPA nuke" as George E. Hopkins terms it. Again, some things are or should be sacred and/or contested and challenged at every step. I was an ALPA pilot when all this was going down and was absolutely disgusted with how every pilot group folded like a house of cards. I also saw the insane amount of greed by the older, senior pilots, well before the Age 65 rule.

I was laughing my head off at the whole "Taking it back" bull. While our pensions and scope were being gutted along with some paycuts going to 50%.... ALPA was valiantly fighting for TWIC. Seriously?!?

As I said, nothing is sacred to ALPA or US airline pilots. ALPA's 'red line' is a flexible, and easily adjustable target... just threaten them with something. It's embarrassing.

So before you start defending yourself again with how your hands are tied due to RLA, remember... some things in life should be sacred and worth fighting for even if you **** people off. RLA hasn't even been truly challenged in recent history. I'd say gutting the pensions, giving away your flying to 90-seat RJ operator, not to mention cutting some groups' pay by as much as 50% would qualify for a major dispute under RLA, and if not... make a stand and challenge the almost 100-year law! Nope.... house of cards, instead. That's the no-balls part.

Try again.