Far 117
09-30-2013 | 05:56 AM
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Far 117. 36+ hour layovers req'd.
So kind of interesting as it just "hit my radar screen" today. Do all the pilots flying international realize that FAR 117 is going to force layovers greater than 36 hours for international flights over 7 to 8 hours or so?
Here is a summary from another post I made:
The Flight Duty Period is counted from the last time the crew was "Acclimated". Acclimated means 72 hours in "Theater" or after 36 hours rest. So for the trip EWR-GRU-EWR when the pilots show up for the return leg they have to look back and ask "when were we last acclimated?' The answer is when they left EWR . . . SO . . . the Flight Duty Period is considered to be BOTH legs and is limited by the table below. The result of this rule will be 36 hour layovers on all international flights that have round trip totals greater than 15 hours to 19 hours depending on the departure time and augmentation level.
9 day Asia lines with 80+ hours just became 12 day lines, and 12 day European lines just became 16 days unless they augment the European trips under 19 hours with another pilot.
Here is a summary from another post I made:
The Flight Duty Period is counted from the last time the crew was "Acclimated". Acclimated means 72 hours in "Theater" or after 36 hours rest. So for the trip EWR-GRU-EWR when the pilots show up for the return leg they have to look back and ask "when were we last acclimated?' The answer is when they left EWR . . . SO . . . the Flight Duty Period is considered to be BOTH legs and is limited by the table below. The result of this rule will be 36 hour layovers on all international flights that have round trip totals greater than 15 hours to 19 hours depending on the departure time and augmentation level.
§ 117.17 Flight duty period: Augmented flightcrew.
(a) For flight operations conducted with an acclimated augmented flightcrew, no certificate holder may assign and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment if the scheduled flight duty period will exceed the limits specified in Table C of this part.
(b) If the flightcrew member is not acclimated:
(1) The maximum flight duty period in Table C of this part is reduced by 30 minutes.
(2) The applicable flight duty period is based on the local time at the theater in which the flightcrew member was last acclimated.
(a) For flight operations conducted with an acclimated augmented flightcrew, no certificate holder may assign and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment if the scheduled flight duty period will exceed the limits specified in Table C of this part.
(b) If the flightcrew member is not acclimated:
(1) The maximum flight duty period in Table C of this part is reduced by 30 minutes.
(2) The applicable flight duty period is based on the local time at the theater in which the flightcrew member was last acclimated.
§ 117.3 Definitions.
Acclimated means a condition in which a flightcrew member has been in a theater for 72 hours or has been given at least 36 consecutive hours free from duty.
Acclimated means a condition in which a flightcrew member has been in a theater for 72 hours or has been given at least 36 consecutive hours free from duty.
9 day Asia lines with 80+ hours just became 12 day lines, and 12 day European lines just became 16 days unless they augment the European trips under 19 hours with another pilot.
Last edited by Sunvox; 09-30-2013 at 06:11 AM.
09-30-2013 | 06:30 AM
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09-30-2013 | 06:45 AM
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Doesn't the footnote in the ALPA table say the duty day limit is only reduced by 30 minutes if the pilot is not acclimated?
Read the practice bids for PBS will be FAR117 compliant so you should have your answer very soon.
Read the practice bids for PBS will be FAR117 compliant so you should have your answer very soon.
09-30-2013 | 06:47 AM
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From: Road construction signholder
I'm not sure what you are saying? It doesn't matter that you are in the same theater, you still can't exceed the duty time limitations for an Augmented Crew whether in "theater" or not.
While all of us will have headaches processing all the upcoming FAR 117 changes, I don't think your CONUS-S. America example will be changing from current practice.
In this case (NOT CONUS-Europe or CONUS-Asia) the crews are acclimated for the entire duration of the trip. No extra long layover is required to make the acclimatization rules fit.
Therefore the way I read it, even with a "Class 3" facility (three-man crew, non lie-flat seat that reclines at least 40 degrees) and the typical depart-at-night scenario for the GRU-EWR return leg, you still have a 13 hour duty day in which to conduct the flight--which means nothing should change from current trip construction.
Am I missing something here? (I well may be).
While all of us will have headaches processing all the upcoming FAR 117 changes, I don't think your CONUS-S. America example will be changing from current practice.
In this case (NOT CONUS-Europe or CONUS-Asia) the crews are acclimated for the entire duration of the trip. No extra long layover is required to make the acclimatization rules fit.
Therefore the way I read it, even with a "Class 3" facility (three-man crew, non lie-flat seat that reclines at least 40 degrees) and the typical depart-at-night scenario for the GRU-EWR return leg, you still have a 13 hour duty day in which to conduct the flight--which means nothing should change from current trip construction.
Am I missing something here? (I well may be).
09-30-2013 | 07:13 AM
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I'm not sure what you are saying? It doesn't matter that you are in the same theater, you still can't exceed the duty time limitations for an Augmented Crew whether in "theater" or not.
While all of us will have headaches processing all the upcoming FAR 117 changes, I don't think your CONUS-S. America example will be changing from current practice.
In this case (NOT CONUS-Europe or CONUS-Asia) the crews are acclimated for the entire duration of the trip. No extra long layover is required to make the acclimatization rules fit.
Therefore the way I read it, even with a "Class 3" facility (three-man crew, non lie-flat seat that reclines at least 40 degrees) and the typical depart-at-night scenario for the GRU-EWR return leg, you still have a 13 hour duty day in which to conduct the flight--which means nothing should change from current trip construction.
Am I missing something here? (I well may be).
While all of us will have headaches processing all the upcoming FAR 117 changes, I don't think your CONUS-S. America example will be changing from current practice.
In this case (NOT CONUS-Europe or CONUS-Asia) the crews are acclimated for the entire duration of the trip. No extra long layover is required to make the acclimatization rules fit.
Therefore the way I read it, even with a "Class 3" facility (three-man crew, non lie-flat seat that reclines at least 40 degrees) and the typical depart-at-night scenario for the GRU-EWR return leg, you still have a 13 hour duty day in which to conduct the flight--which means nothing should change from current trip construction.
Am I missing something here? (I well may be).
First off I am learning this as I go here so it could very well be that you are right, and I have sent numerous emails to my ALPA reps to get clarification as this may alter my current vacancy bid. Now having said that here is how I see the EWR-GRU-EWR trip.
First, you show up for work and you must determine which set of rules apply to you 1) un-augmented 2) augmented 3) split duty. In the case of EWR-GRU-EWR you fall under augmented rules because of the length of the first leg. When you land in GRU you do not re-acclimate you are still in a single FDP (Flight Duty Period) unless you rest 36 hours you can not have a cumulative flight time greater than that allowed by the augmented rules for a single FDP because those were the rules you were working under when you started the FDP.
Like I said I could very well be wrong, and in fact I sort of hope I am because at the moment it looks to me as if international flying just got a whole lot less efficient.
09-30-2013 | 07:32 AM
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From: 320 Captain
First off I am learning this as I go here so it could very well be that you are right, and I have sent numerous emails to my ALPA reps to get clarification as this may alter my current vacancy bid. Now having said that here is how I see the EWR-GRU-EWR trip.
First, you show up for work and you must determine which set of rules apply to you 1) un-augmented 2) augmented 3) split duty. In the case of EWR-GRU-EWR you fall under augmented rules because of the length of the first leg. When you land in GRU you do not re-acclimate you are still in a single FDP (Flight Duty Period) unless you rest 36 hours you can not have a cumulative flight time greater than that allowed by the augmented rules for a single FDP because those were the rules you were working under when you started the FDP.
Like I said I could very well be wrong, and in fact I sort of hope I am because at the moment it looks to me as if international flying just got a whole lot less efficient.
First, you show up for work and you must determine which set of rules apply to you 1) un-augmented 2) augmented 3) split duty. In the case of EWR-GRU-EWR you fall under augmented rules because of the length of the first leg. When you land in GRU you do not re-acclimate you are still in a single FDP (Flight Duty Period) unless you rest 36 hours you can not have a cumulative flight time greater than that allowed by the augmented rules for a single FDP because those were the rules you were working under when you started the FDP.
Like I said I could very well be wrong, and in fact I sort of hope I am because at the moment it looks to me as if international flying just got a whole lot less efficient.
From the FAR: Theater means a geographical area where local time at the flightcrew member's flight duty period departure point and arrival point differ by more than 60 degrees longitude.
So under your example of EWR-GRU-EWR there is no need to be acclimated because you already are, since you are staying in the same theater.
Also, notice the use of the colon ( : )
(b) If the flightcrew member is not acclimated:
(1) The maximum flight duty period in Table C of this part is reduced by 30 minutes.
(2) The applicable flight duty period is based on the local time at the theater in which the flightcrew member was last acclimated.
(1) The maximum flight duty period in Table C of this part is reduced by 30 minutes.
(2) The applicable flight duty period is based on the local time at the theater in which the flightcrew member was last acclimated.
So lets use IAD-MUC-EWR as an example. As presently constructed for October:
PILOT --> 1640 27/Oct | 1 76P 106 EWR MUC 1810 0720 8:10 28:20 8:10 10:10 26:20
| PILOT --> 1010 29/Oct | 3 76P 133 MUC IAD 1140 1630 9:50 25:50 9:50 11:50 23:50
| PILOT --> 1650 30/Oct | 4 76P 132 IAD MUC 1820 0740 8:20 25:40 8:20 10:20 23:40
| PILOT --> 0750 01/Nov | 6 76P 107 MUC EWR 0920 1350 9:30 9:30 11:30
| TOTAL CR: 35:50 TOTAL BLK: 35:50 TAFB: 117:40 | -----------------------
| PILOT --> 1010 29/Oct | 3 76P 133 MUC IAD 1140 1630 9:50 25:50 9:50 11:50 23:50
| PILOT --> 1650 30/Oct | 4 76P 132 IAD MUC 1820 0740 8:20 25:40 8:20 10:20 23:40
| PILOT --> 0750 01/Nov | 6 76P 107 MUC EWR 0920 1350 9:30 9:30 11:30
| TOTAL CR: 35:50 TOTAL BLK: 35:50 TAFB: 117:40 | -----------------------
Glenn
Last edited by C11DCA; 09-30-2013 at 08:00 AM.
09-30-2013 | 07:39 AM
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From: Road construction signholder
First off I am learning this as I go here so it could very well be that you are right, and I have sent numerous emails to my ALPA reps to get clarification as this may alter my current vacancy bid. Now having said that here is how I see the EWR-GRU-EWR trip.
First, you show up for work and you must determine which set of rules apply to you 1) un-augmented 2) augmented 3) split duty. In the case of EWR-GRU-EWR you fall under augmented rules because of the length of the first leg. When you land in GRU you do not re-acclimate you are still in a single FDP (Flight Duty Period) unless you rest 36 hours you can not have a cumulative flight time greater than that allowed by the augmented rules for a single FDP because those were the rules you were working under when you started the FDP.
Like I said I could very well be wrong, and in fact I sort of hope I am because at the moment it looks to me as if international flying just got a whole lot less efficient.
First, you show up for work and you must determine which set of rules apply to you 1) un-augmented 2) augmented 3) split duty. In the case of EWR-GRU-EWR you fall under augmented rules because of the length of the first leg. When you land in GRU you do not re-acclimate you are still in a single FDP (Flight Duty Period) unless you rest 36 hours you can not have a cumulative flight time greater than that allowed by the augmented rules for a single FDP because those were the rules you were working under when you started the FDP.
Like I said I could very well be wrong, and in fact I sort of hope I am because at the moment it looks to me as if international flying just got a whole lot less efficient.
You already are, and remain, acclimated. So really you just need to ask "what are the duty day and block time limits, given the particular rest facilities" given that you know you will be augmented.
This example above is just two separate duty periods, separated by a legal rest break, remaining acclimatized. Not much else to trouble yourself with...if of course I am correct.
09-30-2013 | 07:42 AM
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FAR 117.3 Definitions
Flight duty period (FDP) means a period that begins when a flightcrew member is required to report for duty with the intention of conducting a flight, a series of flights, or positioning or ferrying flights, and ends when the aircraft is parked after the last flight and there is no intention for further aircraft movement by the same flightcrew member.
Flight duty period (FDP) means a period that begins when a flightcrew member is required to report for duty with the intention of conducting a flight, a series of flights, or positioning or ferrying flights, and ends when the aircraft is parked after the last flight and there is no intention for further aircraft movement by the same flightcrew member.
09-30-2013 | 09:12 AM
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when the pilots show up for the return leg they have to look back and ask "when were we last acclimated?' The answer is when they left EWR . . . SO . . . the Flight Duty Period is considered to be BOTH legs and is limited by the table below. The result of this rule will be 36 hour layovers on all international flights that have round trip totals greater than 15 hours to 19 hours depending on the departure time and augmentation level.
If you have less than a 36 hour layover, you remain acclimated to Eastern time. All this means is that for the return leg you enter the chart you posted at whatever time it is back in the US when you show for duty in Europe. Plus the :30 penalty.
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