View Poll Results: How did you vote?
Yes ALPA
93
86.92%
Yes Other
3
2.80%
No
11
10.28%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll
Jetblue...how did you vote?
04-02-2014, 09:13 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 900
I'm on the fence as to how to vote. Based on prior experience at an ALPA carrier, the "over promises and under deliverance," the sheer favoritism shown at the rep level and a host of other things, I can't in good conscience click the "yes" for ALPA.
That being said, I also can't click the "no" and vote to continue under the DR. Which, I guess, leaves me in the JBPA crowd as well. Sadly, I feel this is an option that our pilots aren't being fairly told about at all. So far, the only thing I've seen that explains this option is coming from the COMPANY in that regard. In that instance, how is ALPA any different in skewing the data and information towards the result they want, which is a win without a run off election. I know a LOT of guys that feel as I do, we need a CBA but don't want ALPA as our rep. Many have been told to "Hold your nose and vote ALPA as there isn't another choice," which isn't true.
ALPA, IMO, doesn't want people to vote "other" for fear they won't get a simple majority. If they don't, it forces a run off election, and the guys that voted "no" will then have an opportunity to vote ALPA or another representative.
Having been through a grueling contract negotiation that lasted nearly a decade at my last carrier, I don't see a lot of things ALPA national brings to the table compared to an in house union. SWA, for example, seems to get along quite well with theirs. During negotiations, it's all handled at the local level anyway. National might send some lawyer your way to read stuff over, but that's the extent of their involvement, really. Unless you go to the picketing level, and you might get a few more guys to walk in line with you and send out e-mails of support. In the grand scheme of things, this does little to affect the results. I've used ALPA's aeromedical help and AOPA's aeromedical help. Both were essentially the same thing. This leads me to believe that a couple of phone calls, and an in house union could arrange the same thing. LOL insurance is something similar. Not a week went buy I didn't get an offer in the mail to buy into ALPA's LOL insurance. It wasn't included with my dues, it was something I had to pay for separately. Again, a group discount could be arranged with, likely, the same company.
Basically, if ALPA gets voted in, I'm looking for some serious changes. A lot of guys are under the impression that things will change soon after the vote is announced. At the LEAST, you're looking at 3 months just for the committee structure to be set up. Day one, though, you'll be paying dues. If the company violates the contract/PEA/whatever, you won't get immediate satisfaction, either. I've flown with guys that thing ALPA will stand in for them on the spot. Nope. "Fly now, grieve later" is the order of the day. So, even if it is a violation, you'll still have to do it. You might get an extra day off or a couple more bucks later, but it'll be 6 months to a year down the road before the grievance is heard....IF you win.
Bottom line, ALPA, IMO, during this election has been over promising what it can deliver almost as much as the ELT has been. A lot of guys are in for a rude awakening down the road when they realize what the limitations on what ALPA can and can't do are. In order for us just to maintain what we have now financially, 3 years down the road when we get our first contract (and I believe that is an optimistic estimate), we should get industry average for what it is at that time PLUS at minimum the equivalent of a 2% signing bonus based on our earnings for the previous 3 years (or however long it takes to get a contract). Anything else, and we're losing $$$ due to paying union dues. I'd rather not vote in a union only to go backwards on my W2s. And that's not even counting the potential increase to insurance premiums, which may or may not happen regardless of how the vote goes.
That being said, I also can't click the "no" and vote to continue under the DR. Which, I guess, leaves me in the JBPA crowd as well. Sadly, I feel this is an option that our pilots aren't being fairly told about at all. So far, the only thing I've seen that explains this option is coming from the COMPANY in that regard. In that instance, how is ALPA any different in skewing the data and information towards the result they want, which is a win without a run off election. I know a LOT of guys that feel as I do, we need a CBA but don't want ALPA as our rep. Many have been told to "Hold your nose and vote ALPA as there isn't another choice," which isn't true.
ALPA, IMO, doesn't want people to vote "other" for fear they won't get a simple majority. If they don't, it forces a run off election, and the guys that voted "no" will then have an opportunity to vote ALPA or another representative.
Having been through a grueling contract negotiation that lasted nearly a decade at my last carrier, I don't see a lot of things ALPA national brings to the table compared to an in house union. SWA, for example, seems to get along quite well with theirs. During negotiations, it's all handled at the local level anyway. National might send some lawyer your way to read stuff over, but that's the extent of their involvement, really. Unless you go to the picketing level, and you might get a few more guys to walk in line with you and send out e-mails of support. In the grand scheme of things, this does little to affect the results. I've used ALPA's aeromedical help and AOPA's aeromedical help. Both were essentially the same thing. This leads me to believe that a couple of phone calls, and an in house union could arrange the same thing. LOL insurance is something similar. Not a week went buy I didn't get an offer in the mail to buy into ALPA's LOL insurance. It wasn't included with my dues, it was something I had to pay for separately. Again, a group discount could be arranged with, likely, the same company.
Basically, if ALPA gets voted in, I'm looking for some serious changes. A lot of guys are under the impression that things will change soon after the vote is announced. At the LEAST, you're looking at 3 months just for the committee structure to be set up. Day one, though, you'll be paying dues. If the company violates the contract/PEA/whatever, you won't get immediate satisfaction, either. I've flown with guys that thing ALPA will stand in for them on the spot. Nope. "Fly now, grieve later" is the order of the day. So, even if it is a violation, you'll still have to do it. You might get an extra day off or a couple more bucks later, but it'll be 6 months to a year down the road before the grievance is heard....IF you win.
Bottom line, ALPA, IMO, during this election has been over promising what it can deliver almost as much as the ELT has been. A lot of guys are in for a rude awakening down the road when they realize what the limitations on what ALPA can and can't do are. In order for us just to maintain what we have now financially, 3 years down the road when we get our first contract (and I believe that is an optimistic estimate), we should get industry average for what it is at that time PLUS at minimum the equivalent of a 2% signing bonus based on our earnings for the previous 3 years (or however long it takes to get a contract). Anything else, and we're losing $$$ due to paying union dues. I'd rather not vote in a union only to go backwards on my W2s. And that's not even counting the potential increase to insurance premiums, which may or may not happen regardless of how the vote goes.
04-02-2014, 10:49 AM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 320, L
Posts: 38
Some of you guys obviously weren't here when we tried JBPA in '08.
That ship has sailed boys. News flash: Barger didn't write the check that he said he would and here we are taking a third crack at organization after falling further behind.
ALPA is a necessary evil. I'm a former mil guy who's been here 12 years and I think I'm pretty realistic with my expectations.
Some of you 'Hate ALPA' guys cut off your own noses to spite your faces. Flying with a guy like that now. It's kinda fun picking apart his one-dimensional argument centered on his emotional baggage from his s-hole regional starter job.
He keeps telling my that my expectations are unreal but every time he opens his mouth he proves that he is the one with lofty expectations. Of course he'd never been to a union meeting at his prior job. Maybe he shoulda worked on his degree (doesn't have one) and then he wouldn't be so spiteful of the 'big boys' at Delta who, along with ALPA National obviously abused him.
He did vote yes though.
That ship has sailed boys. News flash: Barger didn't write the check that he said he would and here we are taking a third crack at organization after falling further behind.
ALPA is a necessary evil. I'm a former mil guy who's been here 12 years and I think I'm pretty realistic with my expectations.
Some of you 'Hate ALPA' guys cut off your own noses to spite your faces. Flying with a guy like that now. It's kinda fun picking apart his one-dimensional argument centered on his emotional baggage from his s-hole regional starter job.
He keeps telling my that my expectations are unreal but every time he opens his mouth he proves that he is the one with lofty expectations. Of course he'd never been to a union meeting at his prior job. Maybe he shoulda worked on his degree (doesn't have one) and then he wouldn't be so spiteful of the 'big boys' at Delta who, along with ALPA National obviously abused him.
He did vote yes though.
04-02-2014, 10:59 AM
#43
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: Bus Driver
Posts: 45
Kellwolf, you hit the nail right on the head... it's a tough decision.
But, remember these things:
1.) You work for a carrier where the name painted on the side is your employer. That puts you in a different 'league' for lack of a different word.
2.) If nothing else, and I've said this many times before to many people: you are buying insurance. Simple career insurance.
3.) I will disagree with you, it's not just about W2. 'Total Compensation Package' - very important. Work Rules, Healthcare, 'profit sharing'.... It's not just about more money on the W2. How hard do you have to work for that compensation. Talk to the senior dudes and dudettes... and trust me, it's more today than yesterday.
4.) Negotiation is not collaboration. Read the emails frm the PVC about how much collaborating is going on.
I hope you vote Yes.
But, remember these things:
1.) You work for a carrier where the name painted on the side is your employer. That puts you in a different 'league' for lack of a different word.
2.) If nothing else, and I've said this many times before to many people: you are buying insurance. Simple career insurance.
3.) I will disagree with you, it's not just about W2. 'Total Compensation Package' - very important. Work Rules, Healthcare, 'profit sharing'.... It's not just about more money on the W2. How hard do you have to work for that compensation. Talk to the senior dudes and dudettes... and trust me, it's more today than yesterday.
4.) Negotiation is not collaboration. Read the emails frm the PVC about how much collaborating is going on.
I hope you vote Yes.
04-02-2014, 11:19 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 524
Originally Posted by Kellwolf
I'm on the fence as to how to vote. Based on prior experience at an ALPA carrier, the "over promises and under deliverance," the sheer favoritism shown at the rep level and a host of other things, I can't in good conscience click the "yes" for ALPA.
That being said, I also can't click the "no" and vote to continue under the DR. Which, I guess, leaves me in the JBPA crowd as well. Sadly, I feel this is an option that our pilots aren't being fairly told about at all. So far, the only thing I've seen that explains this option is coming from the COMPANY in that regard. In that instance, how is ALPA any different in skewing the data and information towards the result they want, which is a win without a run off election. I know a LOT of guys that feel as I do, we need a CBA but don't want ALPA as our rep. Many have been told to "Hold your nose and vote ALPA as there isn't another choice," which isn't true.
ALPA, IMO, doesn't want people to vote "other" for fear they won't get a simple majority. If they don't, it forces a run off election, and the guys that voted "no" will then have an opportunity to vote ALPA or another representative.
Having been through a grueling contract negotiation that lasted nearly a decade at my last carrier, I don't see a lot of things ALPA national brings to the table compared to an in house union. SWA, for example, seems to get along quite well with theirs. During negotiations, it's all handled at the local level anyway. National might send some lawyer your way to read stuff over, but that's the extent of their involvement, really. Unless you go to the picketing level, and you might get a few more guys to walk in line with you and send out e-mails of support. In the grand scheme of things, this does little to affect the results. I've used ALPA's aeromedical help and AOPA's aeromedical help. Both were essentially the same thing. This leads me to believe that a couple of phone calls, and an in house union could arrange the same thing. LOL insurance is something similar. Not a week went buy I didn't get an offer in the mail to buy into ALPA's LOL insurance. It wasn't included with my dues, it was something I had to pay for separately. Again, a group discount could be arranged with, likely, the same company.
Basically, if ALPA gets voted in, I'm looking for some serious changes. A lot of guys are under the impression that things will change soon after the vote is announced. At the LEAST, you're looking at 3 months just for the committee structure to be set up. Day one, though, you'll be paying dues. If the company violates the contract/PEA/whatever, you won't get immediate satisfaction, either. I've flown with guys that thing ALPA will stand in for them on the spot. Nope. "Fly now, grieve later" is the order of the day. So, even if it is a violation, you'll still have to do it. You might get an extra day off or a couple more bucks later, but it'll be 6 months to a year down the road before the grievance is heard....IF you win.
Bottom line, ALPA, IMO, during this election has been over promising what it can deliver almost as much as the ELT has been. A lot of guys are in for a rude awakening down the road when they realize what the limitations on what ALPA can and can't do are. In order for us just to maintain what we have now financially, 3 years down the road when we get our first contract (and I believe that is an optimistic estimate), we should get industry average for what it is at that time PLUS at minimum the equivalent of a 2% signing bonus based on our earnings for the previous 3 years (or however long it takes to get a contract). Anything else, and we're losing $$$ due to paying union dues. I'd rather not vote in a union only to go backwards on my W2s. And that's not even counting the potential increase to insurance premiums, which may or may not happen regardless of how the vote goes.
That being said, I also can't click the "no" and vote to continue under the DR. Which, I guess, leaves me in the JBPA crowd as well. Sadly, I feel this is an option that our pilots aren't being fairly told about at all. So far, the only thing I've seen that explains this option is coming from the COMPANY in that regard. In that instance, how is ALPA any different in skewing the data and information towards the result they want, which is a win without a run off election. I know a LOT of guys that feel as I do, we need a CBA but don't want ALPA as our rep. Many have been told to "Hold your nose and vote ALPA as there isn't another choice," which isn't true.
ALPA, IMO, doesn't want people to vote "other" for fear they won't get a simple majority. If they don't, it forces a run off election, and the guys that voted "no" will then have an opportunity to vote ALPA or another representative.
Having been through a grueling contract negotiation that lasted nearly a decade at my last carrier, I don't see a lot of things ALPA national brings to the table compared to an in house union. SWA, for example, seems to get along quite well with theirs. During negotiations, it's all handled at the local level anyway. National might send some lawyer your way to read stuff over, but that's the extent of their involvement, really. Unless you go to the picketing level, and you might get a few more guys to walk in line with you and send out e-mails of support. In the grand scheme of things, this does little to affect the results. I've used ALPA's aeromedical help and AOPA's aeromedical help. Both were essentially the same thing. This leads me to believe that a couple of phone calls, and an in house union could arrange the same thing. LOL insurance is something similar. Not a week went buy I didn't get an offer in the mail to buy into ALPA's LOL insurance. It wasn't included with my dues, it was something I had to pay for separately. Again, a group discount could be arranged with, likely, the same company.
Basically, if ALPA gets voted in, I'm looking for some serious changes. A lot of guys are under the impression that things will change soon after the vote is announced. At the LEAST, you're looking at 3 months just for the committee structure to be set up. Day one, though, you'll be paying dues. If the company violates the contract/PEA/whatever, you won't get immediate satisfaction, either. I've flown with guys that thing ALPA will stand in for them on the spot. Nope. "Fly now, grieve later" is the order of the day. So, even if it is a violation, you'll still have to do it. You might get an extra day off or a couple more bucks later, but it'll be 6 months to a year down the road before the grievance is heard....IF you win.
Bottom line, ALPA, IMO, during this election has been over promising what it can deliver almost as much as the ELT has been. A lot of guys are in for a rude awakening down the road when they realize what the limitations on what ALPA can and can't do are. In order for us just to maintain what we have now financially, 3 years down the road when we get our first contract (and I believe that is an optimistic estimate), we should get industry average for what it is at that time PLUS at minimum the equivalent of a 2% signing bonus based on our earnings for the previous 3 years (or however long it takes to get a contract). Anything else, and we're losing $$$ due to paying union dues. I'd rather not vote in a union only to go backwards on my W2s. And that's not even counting the potential increase to insurance premiums, which may or may not happen regardless of how the vote goes.
The cards signed by an overwhelming majority clearly stated an election for representation by the Airline Pilots Association. The company would financially handicap an inhouse union, just ask the Air Tran pilots.
The airlines in our peer set have ALPA. They all have equal or better pay with much better benefits. Most of the regional carriers have better health insurance then we do.
Specifically what has ALPA over promised? Please be more specific. You sound like you are looking for a reason to vote no rather than yes. Your choice.
You have no representation at all right now. None whatsoever. If ALPA is not voted in the company will continue to steam roll the pilot group with new policies via email, i.e. the dependability policy. Your PEA had no input from the PVC and that's how things will continue under the DR. Look on this website to learn about benefits at other carriers.
If I knew how to post personal pictures I could show you a chart with data on length of time to negotiate a contract. Over the last 20 years the average length of time is 32 months to negotiate a first contract for 14 previous non-union carriers.
04-02-2014, 11:49 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Your experience at your last ALPA carrier was a function of the quality of the people the pilots elected. It's vital to have good people working on your behalf in the leadership positions; and they need the full support and consistent volunteerism from the group to be successful.
ALPA has the best tools available, but if the workers are weak, the house you build will be full of problems.
FYI, Dues don't start on day one. It'll be at least June or July... That's what the ALPA attorney said at the NYC dinner recently.
Is JBPA even an entity anymore?
ALPA has the best tools available, but if the workers are weak, the house you build will be full of problems.
FYI, Dues don't start on day one. It'll be at least June or July... That's what the ALPA attorney said at the NYC dinner recently.
Is JBPA even an entity anymore?
04-02-2014, 01:38 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 524
From the FedEx MEC chairman........
"I was surprised to find only a few paragraphs related to insurance benefits and health care in your PEA. And those paragraphs generally just refer to the plan language itself that management drafted and can change! As medically certificated airmen, insurance is a cornerstone of our work life and our families’ security. The FedEx CBA provision that deals with it is 36 pages long."
"I was surprised to find only a few paragraphs related to insurance benefits and health care in your PEA. And those paragraphs generally just refer to the plan language itself that management drafted and can change! As medically certificated airmen, insurance is a cornerstone of our work life and our families’ security. The FedEx CBA provision that deals with it is 36 pages long."
04-02-2014, 04:31 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by Kellwolf
I'm on the fence as to how to vote. Based on prior experience at an ALPA carrier, the "over promises and under deliverance," the sheer favoritism shown at the rep level and a host of other things, I can't in good conscience click the "yes" for ALPA.
That being said, I also can't click the "no" and vote to continue under the DR. Which, I guess, leaves me in the JBPA crowd as well. Sadly, I feel this is an option that our pilots aren't being fairly told about at all. So far, the only thing I've seen that explains this option is coming from the COMPANY in that regard. In that instance, how is ALPA any different in skewing the data and information towards the result they want, which is a win without a run off election. I know a LOT of guys that feel as I do, we need a CBA but don't want ALPA as our rep. Many have been told to "Hold your nose and vote ALPA as there isn't another choice," which isn't true.
ALPA, IMO, doesn't want people to vote "other" for fear they won't get a simple majority. If they don't, it forces a run off election, and the guys that voted "no" will then have an opportunity to vote ALPA or another representative.
Having been through a grueling contract negotiation that lasted nearly a decade at my last carrier, I don't see a lot of things ALPA national brings to the table compared to an in house union. SWA, for example, seems to get along quite well with theirs. During negotiations, it's all handled at the local level anyway. National might send some lawyer your way to read stuff over, but that's the extent of their involvement, really. Unless you go to the picketing level, and you might get a few more guys to walk in line with you and send out e-mails of support. In the grand scheme of things, this does little to affect the results. I've used ALPA's aeromedical help and AOPA's aeromedical help. Both were essentially the same thing. This leads me to believe that a couple of phone calls, and an in house union could arrange the same thing. LOL insurance is something similar. Not a week went buy I didn't get an offer in the mail to buy into ALPA's LOL insurance. It wasn't included with my dues, it was something I had to pay for separately. Again, a group discount could be arranged with, likely, the same company.
Basically, if ALPA gets voted in, I'm looking for some serious changes. A lot of guys are under the impression that things will change soon after the vote is announced. At the LEAST, you're looking at 3 months just for the committee structure to be set up. Day one, though, you'll be paying dues. If the company violates the contract/PEA/whatever, you won't get immediate satisfaction, either. I've flown with guys that thing ALPA will stand in for them on the spot. Nope. "Fly now, grieve later" is the order of the day. So, even if it is a violation, you'll still have to do it. You might get an extra day off or a couple more bucks later, but it'll be 6 months to a year down the road before the grievance is heard....IF you win.
Bottom line, ALPA, IMO, during this election has been over promising what it can deliver almost as much as the ELT has been. A lot of guys are in for a rude awakening down the road when they realize what the limitations on what ALPA can and can't do are. In order for us just to maintain what we have now financially, 3 years down the road when we get our first contract (and I believe that is an optimistic estimate), we should get industry average for what it is at that time PLUS at minimum the equivalent of a 2% signing bonus based on our earnings for the previous 3 years (or however long it takes to get a contract). Anything else, and we're losing $$$ due to paying union dues. I'd rather not vote in a union only to go backwards on my W2s. And that's not even counting the potential increase to insurance premiums, which may or may not happen regardless of how the vote goes.
That being said, I also can't click the "no" and vote to continue under the DR. Which, I guess, leaves me in the JBPA crowd as well. Sadly, I feel this is an option that our pilots aren't being fairly told about at all. So far, the only thing I've seen that explains this option is coming from the COMPANY in that regard. In that instance, how is ALPA any different in skewing the data and information towards the result they want, which is a win without a run off election. I know a LOT of guys that feel as I do, we need a CBA but don't want ALPA as our rep. Many have been told to "Hold your nose and vote ALPA as there isn't another choice," which isn't true.
ALPA, IMO, doesn't want people to vote "other" for fear they won't get a simple majority. If they don't, it forces a run off election, and the guys that voted "no" will then have an opportunity to vote ALPA or another representative.
Having been through a grueling contract negotiation that lasted nearly a decade at my last carrier, I don't see a lot of things ALPA national brings to the table compared to an in house union. SWA, for example, seems to get along quite well with theirs. During negotiations, it's all handled at the local level anyway. National might send some lawyer your way to read stuff over, but that's the extent of their involvement, really. Unless you go to the picketing level, and you might get a few more guys to walk in line with you and send out e-mails of support. In the grand scheme of things, this does little to affect the results. I've used ALPA's aeromedical help and AOPA's aeromedical help. Both were essentially the same thing. This leads me to believe that a couple of phone calls, and an in house union could arrange the same thing. LOL insurance is something similar. Not a week went buy I didn't get an offer in the mail to buy into ALPA's LOL insurance. It wasn't included with my dues, it was something I had to pay for separately. Again, a group discount could be arranged with, likely, the same company.
Basically, if ALPA gets voted in, I'm looking for some serious changes. A lot of guys are under the impression that things will change soon after the vote is announced. At the LEAST, you're looking at 3 months just for the committee structure to be set up. Day one, though, you'll be paying dues. If the company violates the contract/PEA/whatever, you won't get immediate satisfaction, either. I've flown with guys that thing ALPA will stand in for them on the spot. Nope. "Fly now, grieve later" is the order of the day. So, even if it is a violation, you'll still have to do it. You might get an extra day off or a couple more bucks later, but it'll be 6 months to a year down the road before the grievance is heard....IF you win.
Bottom line, ALPA, IMO, during this election has been over promising what it can deliver almost as much as the ELT has been. A lot of guys are in for a rude awakening down the road when they realize what the limitations on what ALPA can and can't do are. In order for us just to maintain what we have now financially, 3 years down the road when we get our first contract (and I believe that is an optimistic estimate), we should get industry average for what it is at that time PLUS at minimum the equivalent of a 2% signing bonus based on our earnings for the previous 3 years (or however long it takes to get a contract). Anything else, and we're losing $$$ due to paying union dues. I'd rather not vote in a union only to go backwards on my W2s. And that's not even counting the potential increase to insurance premiums, which may or may not happen regardless of how the vote goes.
The excuse of "ALPA screwed me at my regional carrier" is getting VERY old! It wasn't ALPA, it was your MEC! The same exact stuff that happened at your previous carrier can happen with an in house. Get a clue dude! People are inheritently evil, period.
Do us all a favor, and just don't vote at all. At least your conscious will be clear with that decision.
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