Brakes Set

Since it has been posted how the First Officers at Southwest lost so much. Here was a little history.
Let everyone make up their own minds.

Southwest Airlines compared AirTran

Last new hire 9/17/2008 AAI - From 10/30/2006 thru

Oct. 2008 - DEC 2008 SWA No Hiring 9/20/2010 448 hired at AAI.

year 2009 SWA No Hiring

Year 2010 SWA No Hiring

SWA First Hired 1/5/2011

The Above is not coming out as typed.
For the year OCT. -DEC 2008 no hiring by SWA.
For the year 2009 SWA NO HIRING
For the year 2010 SWA NO HIRING AAI was hiring from OCT 2006 all the way thru 2010.
Upgrades quickly and gain in seniority annually. That was one of the career expectations of an AAI pilot. What were they for SWA pilots at the bottom of a list for a few years - slow movement, slower upgrades and slow seniority.
Southwest Hired approx. 158 pilots 3 months after the 9/27/2010 announcement to Acquire AAI for classes to begin 1/ 2011.
All of these pilots were placed ahead of the approx. 50 AAI new hires in classes 10,11,12 of 2010.

So tell me why so many SWA pilot F/O's are upset that anyone was placed ahead of them, especially AAI Captains? There was no movement for a few years. I am sure many were on reserve a lot longer than they anticipated. Bidding at the bottom does get old. What were the plans when they were hired? What did they think was going to happen back then or when did they anticipate to upgrade when they first got on vs. at this point in time.

Every group at SWA had a bump in seniority. Even those that I mentioned above. Every pilot at AAI lost 15-31 % of what that had.

Brakes Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brakes Set View Post
So what do you think about my other 6 facts


Here is the post/answer from 1Seat 1Engine
1. I don't accept them as facts.

2. You totally ignore any negative aspects of the merger to any SWA pilots. What would DOH or relative do a SWA career? Where's your FACTS on that side of the equation?

3. Ask yourself honestly how many SWA pilots had pending applications with AT vice AT pilots with applications on file at SWA. Argue all you want but you know the truth of this situation. For many pilots, AT was not a the final career aspiration. The same cannot be said for SWA.

4. AT's vastly younger demographics means that for most pilots, by the end of their careers, they will more than make up for the percentage lost in seniority. These youngsters can look forward to dominating the top of the SWA seniority list in the future.

5. Not everyone was a winner, not everyone was a loser. Everyone is dissatisfied. Sounds like a perfect airline merger to me.

6. At the end of the day, money has value. Seniority don't pay the bills. Money is worth something and the detractors always fail to mention that the majority of AT pilots made more immediately and over the course of a career are vastly better off.
1Seat 1Engine

Here is my answer 1Seat 1Engine


1. Why not?

2. Relative does not effect anyone. Well, ok. If your number 1 at SWA and number 1 at AAI. there can only be 1 number 1. So the AAI pilot is now number 2. If your used to bidding so many lines - you will still be bidding so many lines. It is all relative. Each has a number of pilots for each airplane. The manning was very close to each other. Instead of 10 A/C and 20 pilots you would have had 20 A/C and 40 pilots. No change for the pilots. Yes, SWA had however many A/C vs. AAI but the manning was extremely close. DOH could have been pushed onto the AAI guys probably with a good argument. A guy hired in 96 ( A Captain) put with a SWA pilot hired in 96 (most likely a Captain). Same on up. Had you ever been told that even in Arbitration, Captians don't lose their CA seat?

3. I think it probably would be curious to actually know that number. It is thrown around a lot as FACT (for Shoelu) in various forms or percentages. I would say that listening to many friends at AirTran, there were all kinds of reasons people went there. It depends on the years most likely they were hired. I think it can also be stated ( I mean this as a Fact) many in this industry have found themselves at an Airline that was not their first choice. It worked out out for some and not so much for others. That is my point. A good buddy did not think of AirTran as the final stop early in his career their. But, AirTran ended up being a very good career for him and his family for several years. I never applied to work at Southwest in the 90's. They were some of the lowest paid pilots compared to the Majors. That is a Fact.

4. I don't know the answer to that but I will say this. A loss of 28 or lets state the Fact of 31 % seniority only to be made back after 15 or 20 years! Your position on that is you think that is fair? Most don't. Your 35 with a family and a Captain. What you have had the last 10 years is now replaced. Those vacations you, for 10 years could hold in Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc....will now be gone but in 15 or 20 years you will have the ability to do that again. Go ahead and tell me a little more money is worth that from your family - please, they have not heard that enough. All of us know what QOL MEANS ( FACT ). If I went to my family and said I am going to quit my job tomorrow, no more Family VC in the summer months, or no more 2 weeks off around Thanksgiving and 3 weeks off in December for Christmas/New Years - But, BUT, I am going to make more money. I already make a good living that my family is used to living on.

5. I disagree. I think there are some that are satisfied on BOTH sides.

Do you think a Captain at SWA who has been a Captain for 10-14 years should lose 28% -31% seniority at that point of their career.

Threats were made.. ALPA had a meeting to talk about them.

Burton78

The FOURTH thread and counting started by one person on the same topic.. Give it a rest.

Brakes Set

A very good point and nice picture.

Look at my history. I read. I do not post much. I have just had it with SWA pilots on the jumpseat (not being asked about by us I might ad) talking about their raw deal. I hear it at the hotels. On the vans sometimes when we are at the same hotels. The Flight attendants don't even talk about their deals - they repeat what they have been told - how the AAI pilots really got a great deal and the Southwest pilots got zip. I have listened to my buds talk about their experiences on the line, on the layovers and reading what is said about them on their (they are SWA pilots) new forum.

I feel bad for them and so this is my small part.

Justdoinmyjob

To accomplish what? What is the end game? Do you believe that somehow these threads will shame SWAPA into a redo?

Brakes Set

Your point is correct. There is no redo.

Just look at my history. I am more of a reader. I have enjoyed following what is going on in the industry around me. Some bad things and some very interesting / positive news.

If I was to label what my agenda is - I am not sure, really. This is certainly not the first purchase/merger that I have seen over the decades. I have had friends at several. I have stated I have friends at both airlines SWA/AAI. I would be lying if I said they know each other personally. But, what I can say is we are all of the same caliber of professional aviators. Like so many who read this forum but never post - it can be silly. Definitely, unprofessional at times. This is certainly not my style either - I guess it has just worn on me.

I have grown tired of comments that I have written about already and I wanted to challenge some of them. Not so much because I think I can change the mind of the poster but, for those who just read. To put accurate information for everyone to see. It is not going to change what happened. But, maybe the next time a SWA flight attendant is in a public place repeating what she has been told - someone will challenge it. Same for the SWA pilot on the js (usually an F/O). I doubt it will change there mind either but maybe over time - the false statements will go away.

In the mean time, I will put out the factual information. I will talk about the calls and the real data. It is out there and some comes from legal records.

Brakes Set

One more thing - SWAPA and SWA were not the only ones that wronged the AAI pilot group. Their own ALPA MEC really hurt them by breaking the negotiated deal when they prevented it from a group vote. ie; The Process Agreement. Shoelu, you said you participated in that call with your NC - do you remember that?

Brakes Set

If you were a Southwest pilot before the acquisition - What was your relative seniority increase?

shoelu

Again and again you show your complete lack of understanding of the facts.

The ALPA MEC had every right to not send TA1 to a vote, they were expressly permitted that right directly from Process Agreement.

"If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest."

The applicable governance of ALPA allowed the MEC to make a decision for ALL pilots that the TA would not be released for membership ratification. These are the facts of the situation. Now, if you want me to agree with you that the AirTran MEC SHOULD have sent the TA out for a vote, I will agree with you. TA one would have allowed every Captain to retain their seat. TA 1 would have fenced Atlanta and allowed AirTran pilots to remain in their largest domicile.

Many former AT pilots claim that The MEC did the right thing and no vote was the right move, and many more would have liked to get a vote fully knowing what was in their personal best interest and fully capable of making their own decision.

I still contend that a no vote from the entire pilot would have spoken much louder than a no vote from the MEC only.

Again, all this is ancient history and water under the bridge. I am content to stop talking about it all together and will be happy to do so if people like you will stop misrepresenting the facts. If you want to continue to spew untrue statements, I will continue to point out the inaccuracies.

shoelu

Over and over you keep showing that you have very little understanding of this SLI. Relative does not effect anyone? You can't be this naive.

The ONLY way relative seniority integration has no effect on anyone is if the two pilot groups are exactly identical in age which of course is impossible.

If a pilot has 100 above him on the seniority list and you insert another 100 with exactly the same mandatory retirement dates, then no harm no foul, you end up exactly where you started. If you place 100 younger pilots ahead of you then each and every day those pilots remain on the seniority list above you because they are younger, in some cases by decades, you lose seniority due to the pilots above you not retiring.