SWA AAI continued
05-25-2015 | 04:49 PM
#101
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: Left Seat
First, I would not say the phone call was informal. Your early post to me sounded as though you were upset that I was talking about the phone call. In fact, I stated you were trying to be a little intimidating into possibly scaring me from discussing it further. It was a phone call set up for all SWAPA pilots to call in, as you said and give the special access codes, ask the SWAPA NC committee questions of concern.
Reading all of your post and now your most recent – I would almost guess you might be one of those SWAPA union leaders or possibly on the NC. Identity is not important.
Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ?
ANWER BY SHOELU - Any arbitrated list would most definitely have been implemented by Southwest Airlines, there was no other legal option.
Is there anyone who does not know the big (not the only) reason why SWA set up the holding company to buy AirTran. The DAL pilot who expressed concern about the Process Agreement and the leverage lost by SWA and SWAPA. It was specific. It stated about lost leverage to accept an arbitrated list and get a SOC. Your NC chair stated that would be a list that Southwest Airlines has the choice to implement. He goes on to talk about how the implementation schedule that goes with an award MAY BE NO EARLIER THAN NMB DETERMINES SOC. He reiterates - Quote – because number 1 and you can take this to the bank SWA will protect its culture, THEY HAVE TOLD US THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
Several questions about this same worry – an arbitrated list.
A lot of the call was worried about what the Process Agreement said and if AirTran pilots held out for an arbitrated award and what the SWAPA CBA said. An example; SWAPA NC ask the pilot when does the CBA apply to ALPA side - The NC becomes very coy, (when the pilot stated on our list) aahhhhh, there is no implementation schedule.
Like I said, it is over and over – direct questions by the pilots worried about an arbitrated award. It is over and over the SWAPA NC conveying to them like above. Using assurances. When one pilot ask the NC where does SWA loyalty lay - 2 NC members answered because they want to convey the point to everyone.
One NC member said to look at the document put out the day before to the pilots. He read it and it talked about IF IT GOES TO ARBITRATION – The NC member reiterated, an implementation process will have to be negotiated. The only parties to do that are SWA and SWAPA ONLY !!! The list is just a piece of paper. Then, the other NC member jumps in to reiterate. WE HAVE THEIR EAR. THEY TOLD US THEY AGREE ABOUT OUR CONCERNS. THEY SAID WE HAVE THEIR FULL SUPPORT ETC…..HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE HAS MEETING PERSONALLY WITH THEM AND THERE IS NO MORE HE COULD POSSIBLY SAY !!!!
Many more examples. Along with testimony under oath by attorneys. Recorded by a court reporter. The threats were made. They were discussed in very great detail. They are available to the public. I think the readers get it. Shoelu – deny all you want. Paste from your CBA all you want – it meant nothing back then. I think those with an open mind get it. I am done with this point.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU - (c) If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest.
You pasted this from the Process Agreement. How ironic. It was asked on the phone call as a direct question to the NC. The chairman answered it meant a vote for you (SWAPA) and how they (SWAPA,SWA) spelled out it’s a vote for them –ONLY OF A NEGOTIATED LIST meaning not an arbitrator award !!!
That exact paragraph gave a lot of the pilots angst about the process agreement and an arbitrators award which led to the very poignant questions, followed by the repeated assurances by SWAPA NC that if it went to arbitration – what that meant. NO IMPLEMENTATION OF AirTran pilots.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU -The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and
ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate
EXACTLY. Whalah. Think Guadalupe.
WRITTEN BY SHOELU - I've been answering your questions all along and backing them up with verifiable contractual language that supports my claims. You just don't like the answers because they refute your bogus narrative. These aren't my opinions, they are the agreed upon and enforceable contractual stipulations.
You on the other hand are basing all of your opinions on an unenforceable, informal union meeting that took place over the telephone. None of the OPiNIONS voiced there are legally binding in any way shape or form. The contractual language IS legally binding and enforceable. The opinions voiced on that call were informal opinions. No one ever stated there was a verbal or written contract between SWAPA and SWA not to implement an arbitrated award. Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. There were several possible potential outcomes discussed none of which were ever misrepresented as "sure things", but simply possible potential outcomes going forward.
Me.
First, I guess you are not aware of case law when it comes to what people say, while in a position of leadership. Secondly, I would hardly describe a phone call between 5,880 pilots with the entire SWAPA NC and others) informal.
I think your statement - “Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. “
This tells it all. During that call – the SWAPA NC leader was attempted to say something very damning. He called the pilot “out” on that very fact and then said he was not going to answer. After a long pause of silence – he then said “I’m smiling”. Oh , I am not saying (hint, hint) -ya, right.
It was like that several times during the 1 hour 40 minute plus phone call. It reminded me of something we all can probably relate to , ie; the instructor at the front of the room. Not allowed to tell you something – HE STOMPS HIS FEET. It is like so many times when someone knows the secret and is excited to tell someone.
I am done. I made my point about the phone call. I think everyone can make up their own mind.
Reading all of your post and now your most recent – I would almost guess you might be one of those SWAPA union leaders or possibly on the NC. Identity is not important.
Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ?
ANWER BY SHOELU - Any arbitrated list would most definitely have been implemented by Southwest Airlines, there was no other legal option.
Is there anyone who does not know the big (not the only) reason why SWA set up the holding company to buy AirTran. The DAL pilot who expressed concern about the Process Agreement and the leverage lost by SWA and SWAPA. It was specific. It stated about lost leverage to accept an arbitrated list and get a SOC. Your NC chair stated that would be a list that Southwest Airlines has the choice to implement. He goes on to talk about how the implementation schedule that goes with an award MAY BE NO EARLIER THAN NMB DETERMINES SOC. He reiterates - Quote – because number 1 and you can take this to the bank SWA will protect its culture, THEY HAVE TOLD US THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
Several questions about this same worry – an arbitrated list.
A lot of the call was worried about what the Process Agreement said and if AirTran pilots held out for an arbitrated award and what the SWAPA CBA said. An example; SWAPA NC ask the pilot when does the CBA apply to ALPA side - The NC becomes very coy, (when the pilot stated on our list) aahhhhh, there is no implementation schedule.
Like I said, it is over and over – direct questions by the pilots worried about an arbitrated award. It is over and over the SWAPA NC conveying to them like above. Using assurances. When one pilot ask the NC where does SWA loyalty lay - 2 NC members answered because they want to convey the point to everyone.
One NC member said to look at the document put out the day before to the pilots. He read it and it talked about IF IT GOES TO ARBITRATION – The NC member reiterated, an implementation process will have to be negotiated. The only parties to do that are SWA and SWAPA ONLY !!! The list is just a piece of paper. Then, the other NC member jumps in to reiterate. WE HAVE THEIR EAR. THEY TOLD US THEY AGREE ABOUT OUR CONCERNS. THEY SAID WE HAVE THEIR FULL SUPPORT ETC…..HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE HAS MEETING PERSONALLY WITH THEM AND THERE IS NO MORE HE COULD POSSIBLY SAY !!!!
Many more examples. Along with testimony under oath by attorneys. Recorded by a court reporter. The threats were made. They were discussed in very great detail. They are available to the public. I think the readers get it. Shoelu – deny all you want. Paste from your CBA all you want – it meant nothing back then. I think those with an open mind get it. I am done with this point.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU - (c) If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest.
You pasted this from the Process Agreement. How ironic. It was asked on the phone call as a direct question to the NC. The chairman answered it meant a vote for you (SWAPA) and how they (SWAPA,SWA) spelled out it’s a vote for them –ONLY OF A NEGOTIATED LIST meaning not an arbitrator award !!!
That exact paragraph gave a lot of the pilots angst about the process agreement and an arbitrators award which led to the very poignant questions, followed by the repeated assurances by SWAPA NC that if it went to arbitration – what that meant. NO IMPLEMENTATION OF AirTran pilots.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU -The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and
ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate
EXACTLY. Whalah. Think Guadalupe.
WRITTEN BY SHOELU - I've been answering your questions all along and backing them up with verifiable contractual language that supports my claims. You just don't like the answers because they refute your bogus narrative. These aren't my opinions, they are the agreed upon and enforceable contractual stipulations.
You on the other hand are basing all of your opinions on an unenforceable, informal union meeting that took place over the telephone. None of the OPiNIONS voiced there are legally binding in any way shape or form. The contractual language IS legally binding and enforceable. The opinions voiced on that call were informal opinions. No one ever stated there was a verbal or written contract between SWAPA and SWA not to implement an arbitrated award. Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. There were several possible potential outcomes discussed none of which were ever misrepresented as "sure things", but simply possible potential outcomes going forward.
Me.
First, I guess you are not aware of case law when it comes to what people say, while in a position of leadership. Secondly, I would hardly describe a phone call between 5,880 pilots with the entire SWAPA NC and others) informal.
I think your statement - “Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. “
This tells it all. During that call – the SWAPA NC leader was attempted to say something very damning. He called the pilot “out” on that very fact and then said he was not going to answer. After a long pause of silence – he then said “I’m smiling”. Oh , I am not saying (hint, hint) -ya, right.
It was like that several times during the 1 hour 40 minute plus phone call. It reminded me of something we all can probably relate to , ie; the instructor at the front of the room. Not allowed to tell you something – HE STOMPS HIS FEET. It is like so many times when someone knows the secret and is excited to tell someone.
I am done. I made my point about the phone call. I think everyone can make up their own mind.
05-25-2015 | 04:52 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 998
Likes: 0
From: B737/Capt
It's mostly for the same reason I mentioned in the other thread. If I remember correctly, I joined these new discussions when I stated that AT captain seats were the same as SWA captain seats, which was met with angst by some SWA guys.
In the mean time, you guys have also been acting like Brakes is nuts for remembering things the way he does. But, maybe not.
I got hired by Northwest in 1995 and I am thankful that we weren't treated by Delta pilots they way some of you have been discounting and dismissing the Air Tran guys.
I never heard anyone call NWA a lesser airline 4-5 years AFTER the merger. Sure, it was heated at first. But, 4 years later, we were concentrated on getting a new contract, not diminishing the other side of the SLI.
Maybe some of this inflicted pain should be attributed elsewhere and away from me.
You're a good guy, Oscar. I remember you called out some of your own guys for disrespecting a Frontier pilots wife. I'm sure if anyone can smooth things over as an honest broker, it's you.
Good luck.
In the mean time, you guys have also been acting like Brakes is nuts for remembering things the way he does. But, maybe not.
I got hired by Northwest in 1995 and I am thankful that we weren't treated by Delta pilots they way some of you have been discounting and dismissing the Air Tran guys.
I never heard anyone call NWA a lesser airline 4-5 years AFTER the merger. Sure, it was heated at first. But, 4 years later, we were concentrated on getting a new contract, not diminishing the other side of the SLI.
Maybe some of this inflicted pain should be attributed elsewhere and away from me.
You're a good guy, Oscar. I remember you called out some of your own guys for disrespecting a Frontier pilots wife. I'm sure if anyone can smooth things over as an honest broker, it's you.
Good luck.
newKnow,
I just spent 20+ minutes only to have what I said dumped. You and I have had some honest discussions back and forth. Since I don't wish to spend much more time this evening going over old AT/SWA news I will condense it into minimal statement.
AT was not a lesser airline, it was a younger airline that had spurts in growth with a demographic different from SWA. A relative/DOH integration was not popular at SWA. Therefore I believed retaining Captains seats was a reasonable compromise. My fellow pilots at SWA and the pilots at AT had much different ideas as to what was reasonable. Positions were made and ultimately a cost/benefit analysis was made by both sides. The vote is what it is. I am tired of the demonization of each side. I have flown with many former AT folks and have had no issues.
The future is what we decide it is.....my grandchildren kind of like me.
The Oscar
05-25-2015 | 05:05 PM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 998
Likes: 0
From: B737/Capt
[QUOTE=Brakes Set;1888665]First, I would not say the phone call was informal. Your early post to me sounded as though you were upset that I was talking about the phone call. In fact, I stated you were trying to be a little intimidating into possibly scaring me from discussing it further. It was a phone call set up for all SWAPA pilots to call in, as you said and give the special access codes, ask the SWAPA NC committee questions of concern.
Reading all of your post and now your most recent – I would almost guess you might be one of those SWAPA union leaders or possibly on the NC. Identity is not important.
Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ?
ANWER BY SHOELU - Any arbitrated list would most definitely have been implemented by Southwest Airlines, there was no other legal option.
Is there anyone who does not know the big (not the only) reason why SWA set up the holding company to buy AirTran. The DAL pilot who expressed concern about the Process Agreement and the leverage lost by SWA and SWAPA. It was specific. It stated about lost leverage to accept an arbitrated list and get a SOC. Your NC chair stated that would be a list that Southwest Airlines has the choice to implement. He goes on to talk about how the implementation schedule that goes with an award MAY BE NO EARLIER THAN NMB DETERMINES SOC. He reiterates - Quote – because number 1 and you can take this to the bank SWA will protect its culture, THEY HAVE TOLD US THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
Several questions about this same worry – an arbitrated list.
A lot of the call was worried about what the Process Agreement said and if AirTran pilots held out for an arbitrated award and what the SWAPA CBA said. An example; SWAPA NC ask the pilot when does the CBA apply to ALPA side - The NC becomes very coy, (when the pilot stated on our list) aahhhhh, there is no implementation schedule.
Like I said, it is over and over – direct questions by the pilots worried about an arbitrated award. It is over and over the SWAPA NC conveying to them like above. Using assurances. When one pilot ask the NC where does SWA loyalty lay - 2 NC members answered because they want to convey the point to everyone.
One NC member said to look at the document put out the day before to the pilots. He read it and it talked about IF IT GOES TO ARBITRATION – The NC member reiterated, an implementation process will have to be negotiated. The only parties to do that are SWA and SWAPA ONLY !!! The list is just a piece of paper. Then, the other NC member jumps in to reiterate. WE HAVE THEIR EAR. THEY TOLD US THEY AGREE ABOUT OUR CONCERNS. THEY SAID WE HAVE THEIR FULL SUPPORT ETC…..HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE HAS MEETING PERSONALLY WITH THEM AND THERE IS NO MORE HE COULD POSSIBLY SAY !!!!
Many more examples. Along with testimony under oath by attorneys. Recorded by a court reporter. The threats were made. They were discussed in very great detail. They are available to the public. I think the readers get it. Shoelu – deny all you want. Paste from your CBA all you want – it meant nothing back then. I think those with an open mind get it. I am done with this point.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU - (c) If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest.
You pasted this from the Process Agreement. How ironic. It was asked on the phone call as a direct question to the NC. The chairman answered it meant a vote for you (SWAPA) and how they (SWAPA,SWA) spelled out it’s a vote for them –ONLY OF A NEGOTIATED LIST meaning not an arbitrator award !!!
That exact paragraph gave a lot of the pilots angst about the process agreement and an arbitrators award which led to the very poignant questions, followed by the repeated assurances by SWAPA NC that if it went to arbitration – what that meant. NO IMPLEMENTATION OF AirTran pilots.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU -The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and
ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate
EXACTLY. Whalah. Think Guadalupe.
WRITTEN BY SHOELU - I've been answering your questions all along and backing them up with verifiable contractual language that supports my claims. You just don't like the answers because they refute your bogus narrative. These aren't my opinions, they are the agreed upon and enforceable contractual stipulations.
You on the other hand are basing all of your opinions on an unenforceable, informal union meeting that took place over the telephone. None of the OPiNIONS voiced there are legally binding in any way shape or form. The contractual language IS legally binding and enforceable. The opinions voiced on that call were informal opinions. No one ever stated there was a verbal or written contract between SWAPA and SWA not to implement an arbitrated award. Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. There were several possible potential outcomes discussed none of which were ever misrepresented as "sure things", but simply possible potential outcomes going forward.
Me.
First, I guess you are not aware of case law when it comes to what people say, while in a position of leadership. Secondly, I would hardly describe a phone call between 5,880 pilots with the entire SWAPA NC and others) informal.
I think your statement - “Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. “
This tells it all. During that call – the SWAPA NC leader was attempted to say something very damning. He called the pilot “out” on that very fact and then said he was not going to answer. After a long pause of silence – he then said “I’m smiling”. Oh , I am not saying (hint, hint) -ya, right.
It was like that several times during the 1 hour 40 minute plus phone call. It reminded me of something we all can probably relate to , ie; the instructor at the front of the room. Not allowed to tell you something – HE STOMPS HIS FEET. It is like so many times when someone knows the secret and is excited to tell someone.
I am done. I made my point about the phone call. I think everyone can make up their own mind.[/QUOTE
By the Oscar,
Are you really done BS? I for one think you can't stop. Oh and please tell me you did not say you were a Marine. This AT/SWA thing is over. Time to accept it. Those that wish to rehash the past will live there. Good luck.
The Oscar
Reading all of your post and now your most recent – I would almost guess you might be one of those SWAPA union leaders or possibly on the NC. Identity is not important.
Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ?
ANWER BY SHOELU - Any arbitrated list would most definitely have been implemented by Southwest Airlines, there was no other legal option.
Is there anyone who does not know the big (not the only) reason why SWA set up the holding company to buy AirTran. The DAL pilot who expressed concern about the Process Agreement and the leverage lost by SWA and SWAPA. It was specific. It stated about lost leverage to accept an arbitrated list and get a SOC. Your NC chair stated that would be a list that Southwest Airlines has the choice to implement. He goes on to talk about how the implementation schedule that goes with an award MAY BE NO EARLIER THAN NMB DETERMINES SOC. He reiterates - Quote – because number 1 and you can take this to the bank SWA will protect its culture, THEY HAVE TOLD US THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
Several questions about this same worry – an arbitrated list.
A lot of the call was worried about what the Process Agreement said and if AirTran pilots held out for an arbitrated award and what the SWAPA CBA said. An example; SWAPA NC ask the pilot when does the CBA apply to ALPA side - The NC becomes very coy, (when the pilot stated on our list) aahhhhh, there is no implementation schedule.
Like I said, it is over and over – direct questions by the pilots worried about an arbitrated award. It is over and over the SWAPA NC conveying to them like above. Using assurances. When one pilot ask the NC where does SWA loyalty lay - 2 NC members answered because they want to convey the point to everyone.
One NC member said to look at the document put out the day before to the pilots. He read it and it talked about IF IT GOES TO ARBITRATION – The NC member reiterated, an implementation process will have to be negotiated. The only parties to do that are SWA and SWAPA ONLY !!! The list is just a piece of paper. Then, the other NC member jumps in to reiterate. WE HAVE THEIR EAR. THEY TOLD US THEY AGREE ABOUT OUR CONCERNS. THEY SAID WE HAVE THEIR FULL SUPPORT ETC…..HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE HAS MEETING PERSONALLY WITH THEM AND THERE IS NO MORE HE COULD POSSIBLY SAY !!!!
Many more examples. Along with testimony under oath by attorneys. Recorded by a court reporter. The threats were made. They were discussed in very great detail. They are available to the public. I think the readers get it. Shoelu – deny all you want. Paste from your CBA all you want – it meant nothing back then. I think those with an open mind get it. I am done with this point.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU - (c) If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest.
You pasted this from the Process Agreement. How ironic. It was asked on the phone call as a direct question to the NC. The chairman answered it meant a vote for you (SWAPA) and how they (SWAPA,SWA) spelled out it’s a vote for them –ONLY OF A NEGOTIATED LIST meaning not an arbitrator award !!!
That exact paragraph gave a lot of the pilots angst about the process agreement and an arbitrators award which led to the very poignant questions, followed by the repeated assurances by SWAPA NC that if it went to arbitration – what that meant. NO IMPLEMENTATION OF AirTran pilots.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU -The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and
ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate
EXACTLY. Whalah. Think Guadalupe.
WRITTEN BY SHOELU - I've been answering your questions all along and backing them up with verifiable contractual language that supports my claims. You just don't like the answers because they refute your bogus narrative. These aren't my opinions, they are the agreed upon and enforceable contractual stipulations.
You on the other hand are basing all of your opinions on an unenforceable, informal union meeting that took place over the telephone. None of the OPiNIONS voiced there are legally binding in any way shape or form. The contractual language IS legally binding and enforceable. The opinions voiced on that call were informal opinions. No one ever stated there was a verbal or written contract between SWAPA and SWA not to implement an arbitrated award. Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. There were several possible potential outcomes discussed none of which were ever misrepresented as "sure things", but simply possible potential outcomes going forward.
Me.
First, I guess you are not aware of case law when it comes to what people say, while in a position of leadership. Secondly, I would hardly describe a phone call between 5,880 pilots with the entire SWAPA NC and others) informal.
I think your statement - “Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. “
This tells it all. During that call – the SWAPA NC leader was attempted to say something very damning. He called the pilot “out” on that very fact and then said he was not going to answer. After a long pause of silence – he then said “I’m smiling”. Oh , I am not saying (hint, hint) -ya, right.
It was like that several times during the 1 hour 40 minute plus phone call. It reminded me of something we all can probably relate to , ie; the instructor at the front of the room. Not allowed to tell you something – HE STOMPS HIS FEET. It is like so many times when someone knows the secret and is excited to tell someone.
I am done. I made my point about the phone call. I think everyone can make up their own mind.[/QUOTE
By the Oscar,
Are you really done BS? I for one think you can't stop. Oh and please tell me you did not say you were a Marine. This AT/SWA thing is over. Time to accept it. Those that wish to rehash the past will live there. Good luck.
The Oscar
05-25-2015 | 05:32 PM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,207
Likes: 0
From: CA
First, I would not say the phone call was informal. Your early post to me sounded as though you were upset that I was talking about the phone call. In fact, I stated you were trying to be a little intimidating into possibly scaring me from discussing it further. It was a phone call set up for all SWAPA pilots to call in, as you said and give the special access codes, ask the SWAPA NC committee questions of concern.
Reading all of your post and now your most recent – I would almost guess you might be one of those SWAPA union leaders or possibly on the NC. Identity is not important.
Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ?
ANWER BY SHOELU - Any arbitrated list would most definitely have been implemented by Southwest Airlines, there was no other legal option.
Is there anyone who does not know the big (not the only) reason why SWA set up the holding company to buy AirTran. The DAL pilot who expressed concern about the Process Agreement and the leverage lost by SWA and SWAPA. It was specific. It stated about lost leverage to accept an arbitrated list and get a SOC. Your NC chair stated that would be a list that Southwest Airlines has the choice to implement. He goes on to talk about how the implementation schedule that goes with an award MAY BE NO EARLIER THAN NMB DETERMINES SOC. He reiterates - Quote – because number 1 and you can take this to the bank SWA will protect its culture, THEY HAVE TOLD US THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
Several questions about this same worry – an arbitrated list.
A lot of the call was worried about what the Process Agreement said and if AirTran pilots held out for an arbitrated award and what the SWAPA CBA said. An example; SWAPA NC ask the pilot when does the CBA apply to ALPA side - The NC becomes very coy, (when the pilot stated on our list) aahhhhh, there is no implementation schedule.
Like I said, it is over and over – direct questions by the pilots worried about an arbitrated award. It is over and over the SWAPA NC conveying to them like above. Using assurances. When one pilot ask the NC where does SWA loyalty lay - 2 NC members answered because they want to convey the point to everyone.
One NC member said to look at the document put out the day before to the pilots. He read it and it talked about IF IT GOES TO ARBITRATION – The NC member reiterated, an implementation process will have to be negotiated. The only parties to do that are SWA and SWAPA ONLY !!! The list is just a piece of paper. Then, the other NC member jumps in to reiterate. WE HAVE THEIR EAR. THEY TOLD US THEY AGREE ABOUT OUR CONCERNS. THEY SAID WE HAVE THEIR FULL SUPPORT ETC…..HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE HAS MEETING PERSONALLY WITH THEM AND THERE IS NO MORE HE COULD POSSIBLY SAY !!!!
Many more examples. Along with testimony under oath by attorneys. Recorded by a court reporter. The threats were made. They were discussed in very great detail. They are available to the public. I think the readers get it. Shoelu – deny all you want. Paste from your CBA all you want – it meant nothing back then. I think those with an open mind get it. I am done with this point.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU - (c) If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest.
You pasted this from the Process Agreement. How ironic. It was asked on the phone call as a direct question to the NC. The chairman answered it meant a vote for you (SWAPA) and how they (SWAPA,SWA) spelled out it’s a vote for them –ONLY OF A NEGOTIATED LIST meaning not an arbitrator award !!!
That exact paragraph gave a lot of the pilots angst about the process agreement and an arbitrators award which led to the very poignant questions, followed by the repeated assurances by SWAPA NC that if it went to arbitration – what that meant. NO IMPLEMENTATION OF AirTran pilots.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU -The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and
ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate
EXACTLY. Whalah. Think Guadalupe.
WRITTEN BY SHOELU - I've been answering your questions all along and backing them up with verifiable contractual language that supports my claims. You just don't like the answers because they refute your bogus narrative. These aren't my opinions, they are the agreed upon and enforceable contractual stipulations.
You on the other hand are basing all of your opinions on an unenforceable, informal union meeting that took place over the telephone. None of the OPiNIONS voiced there are legally binding in any way shape or form. The contractual language IS legally binding and enforceable. The opinions voiced on that call were informal opinions. No one ever stated there was a verbal or written contract between SWAPA and SWA not to implement an arbitrated award. Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. There were several possible potential outcomes discussed none of which were ever misrepresented as "sure things", but simply possible potential outcomes going forward.
Me.
First, I guess you are not aware of case law when it comes to what people say, while in a position of leadership. Secondly, I would hardly describe a phone call between 5,880 pilots with the entire SWAPA NC and others) informal.
I think your statement - “Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. “
This tells it all. During that call – the SWAPA NC leader was attempted to say something very damning. He called the pilot “out” on that very fact and then said he was not going to answer. After a long pause of silence – he then said “I’m smiling”. Oh , I am not saying (hint, hint) -ya, right.
It was like that several times during the 1 hour 40 minute plus phone call. It reminded me of something we all can probably relate to , ie; the instructor at the front of the room. Not allowed to tell you something – HE STOMPS HIS FEET. It is like so many times when someone knows the secret and is excited to tell someone.
I am done. I made my point about the phone call. I think everyone can make up their own mind.
Reading all of your post and now your most recent – I would almost guess you might be one of those SWAPA union leaders or possibly on the NC. Identity is not important.
Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ?
ANWER BY SHOELU - Any arbitrated list would most definitely have been implemented by Southwest Airlines, there was no other legal option.
Is there anyone who does not know the big (not the only) reason why SWA set up the holding company to buy AirTran. The DAL pilot who expressed concern about the Process Agreement and the leverage lost by SWA and SWAPA. It was specific. It stated about lost leverage to accept an arbitrated list and get a SOC. Your NC chair stated that would be a list that Southwest Airlines has the choice to implement. He goes on to talk about how the implementation schedule that goes with an award MAY BE NO EARLIER THAN NMB DETERMINES SOC. He reiterates - Quote – because number 1 and you can take this to the bank SWA will protect its culture, THEY HAVE TOLD US THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
Several questions about this same worry – an arbitrated list.
A lot of the call was worried about what the Process Agreement said and if AirTran pilots held out for an arbitrated award and what the SWAPA CBA said. An example; SWAPA NC ask the pilot when does the CBA apply to ALPA side - The NC becomes very coy, (when the pilot stated on our list) aahhhhh, there is no implementation schedule.
Like I said, it is over and over – direct questions by the pilots worried about an arbitrated award. It is over and over the SWAPA NC conveying to them like above. Using assurances. When one pilot ask the NC where does SWA loyalty lay - 2 NC members answered because they want to convey the point to everyone.
One NC member said to look at the document put out the day before to the pilots. He read it and it talked about IF IT GOES TO ARBITRATION – The NC member reiterated, an implementation process will have to be negotiated. The only parties to do that are SWA and SWAPA ONLY !!! The list is just a piece of paper. Then, the other NC member jumps in to reiterate. WE HAVE THEIR EAR. THEY TOLD US THEY AGREE ABOUT OUR CONCERNS. THEY SAID WE HAVE THEIR FULL SUPPORT ETC…..HE TALKS ABOUT HOW HE HAS MEETING PERSONALLY WITH THEM AND THERE IS NO MORE HE COULD POSSIBLY SAY !!!!
Many more examples. Along with testimony under oath by attorneys. Recorded by a court reporter. The threats were made. They were discussed in very great detail. They are available to the public. I think the readers get it. Shoelu – deny all you want. Paste from your CBA all you want – it meant nothing back then. I think those with an open mind get it. I am done with this point.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU - (c) If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest.
You pasted this from the Process Agreement. How ironic. It was asked on the phone call as a direct question to the NC. The chairman answered it meant a vote for you (SWAPA) and how they (SWAPA,SWA) spelled out it’s a vote for them –ONLY OF A NEGOTIATED LIST meaning not an arbitrator award !!!
That exact paragraph gave a lot of the pilots angst about the process agreement and an arbitrators award which led to the very poignant questions, followed by the repeated assurances by SWAPA NC that if it went to arbitration – what that meant. NO IMPLEMENTATION OF AirTran pilots.
Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
ANSWER BY SHOELU -The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and
ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate
EXACTLY. Whalah. Think Guadalupe.
WRITTEN BY SHOELU - I've been answering your questions all along and backing them up with verifiable contractual language that supports my claims. You just don't like the answers because they refute your bogus narrative. These aren't my opinions, they are the agreed upon and enforceable contractual stipulations.
You on the other hand are basing all of your opinions on an unenforceable, informal union meeting that took place over the telephone. None of the OPiNIONS voiced there are legally binding in any way shape or form. The contractual language IS legally binding and enforceable. The opinions voiced on that call were informal opinions. No one ever stated there was a verbal or written contract between SWAPA and SWA not to implement an arbitrated award. Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. There were several possible potential outcomes discussed none of which were ever misrepresented as "sure things", but simply possible potential outcomes going forward.
Me.
First, I guess you are not aware of case law when it comes to what people say, while in a position of leadership. Secondly, I would hardly describe a phone call between 5,880 pilots with the entire SWAPA NC and others) informal.
I think your statement - “Union leadership was very careful in choosing their words to not convey any definitive statements. “
This tells it all. During that call – the SWAPA NC leader was attempted to say something very damning. He called the pilot “out” on that very fact and then said he was not going to answer. After a long pause of silence – he then said “I’m smiling”. Oh , I am not saying (hint, hint) -ya, right.
It was like that several times during the 1 hour 40 minute plus phone call. It reminded me of something we all can probably relate to , ie; the instructor at the front of the room. Not allowed to tell you something – HE STOMPS HIS FEET. It is like so many times when someone knows the secret and is excited to tell someone.
I am done. I made my point about the phone call. I think everyone can make up their own mind.
Now I have two specific questions that I have asked three different times and you ignored them every time. So, do me the favor of answering them now since I answered each of your questions.
1) Did you really not know what happened in the integration? Did you really not know how many captains lost their seats? Did you really not know if any NWA captains lost their seats in that integration? Did you really not know if the former AirTran captains would be able able to re-upgrade? Why is it that you seem to be asking questions that you clearly know the answer to? You've already stated you are a long time member of the profession as a third generation aviator, how is it that all of these things escaped you? Why did you represent yourself as someone looking for answers to the stated questions in your original post when you already had your personal variation of the facts with no clarification needed?
2) Why would ANYONE, I REPEAT, ANYONE not associated with AirTran or Southwest illegally eavesdrop on a private conference call if they were not associated with either airline, especially in 2011 before anything but a process agreement had been worked out???
05-26-2015 | 04:39 AM
#105
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: Left Seat
There is simply no pleasing you. You asked specific questions and I have provided specific answers, not containing my personal opinion but specific answers from legal documents to back up my assertions.
Now I have two specific questions that I have asked three different times and you ignored them every time. So, do me the favor of answering them now since I answered each of your questions.
1) Did you really not know what happened in the integration? Did you really not know how many captains lost their seats? Did you really not know if any NWA captains lost their seats in that integration? Did you really not know if the former AirTran captains would be able able to re-upgrade? Why is it that you seem to be asking questions that you clearly know the answer to? You've already stated you are a long time member of the profession as a third generation aviator, how is it that all of these things escaped you? Why did you represent yourself as someone looking for answers to the stated questions in your original post when you already had your personal variation of the facts with no clarification needed?
2) Why would ANYONE, I REPEAT, ANYONE not associated with AirTran or Southwest illegally eavesdrop on a private conference call if they were not associated with either airline, especially in 2011 before anything but a process agreement had been worked out???
Now I have two specific questions that I have asked three different times and you ignored them every time. So, do me the favor of answering them now since I answered each of your questions.
1) Did you really not know what happened in the integration? Did you really not know how many captains lost their seats? Did you really not know if any NWA captains lost their seats in that integration? Did you really not know if the former AirTran captains would be able able to re-upgrade? Why is it that you seem to be asking questions that you clearly know the answer to? You've already stated you are a long time member of the profession as a third generation aviator, how is it that all of these things escaped you? Why did you represent yourself as someone looking for answers to the stated questions in your original post when you already had your personal variation of the facts with no clarification needed?
2) Why would ANYONE, I REPEAT, ANYONE not associated with AirTran or Southwest illegally eavesdrop on a private conference call if they were not associated with either airline, especially in 2011 before anything but a process agreement had been worked out???
I have answered them a few times. I stated why I started the thread originally. I did not know the answers to those questions the way I do now. That is probably true for many today. Yes, one individual pushed me to ask the questions. It was a Southwest pilot who I gave a ride. It was not the first or the only place I have heard that type.
I did reach out and became aware of a lot. It opened my eyes. It made me disgusted. I became very interested and have learned a lot of facts that I did not know before. It was clearly something that is still a hot button.
My knowledge about that phone call really bothers you. It is a rabbit hole, sir.
I am pretty much done. I know the facts now and am satisfied. I think there are many now who maybe the next time an employee representing any employee group of Southwest can be challenged when they begin to repeat false information in the hotel bar, at the hotel pool or the community soccer game.
05-26-2015 | 10:47 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
newKnow,
I just spent 20+ minutes only to have what I said dumped. You and I have had some honest discussions back and forth. Since I don't wish to spend much more time this evening going over old AT/SWA news I will condense it into minimal statement.
AT was not a lesser airline, it was a younger airline that had spurts in growth with a demographic different from SWA. A relative/DOH integration was not popular at SWA. Therefore I believed retaining Captains seats was a reasonable compromise. My fellow pilots at SWA and the pilots at AT had much different ideas as to what was reasonable. Positions were made and ultimately a cost/benefit analysis was made by both sides. The vote is what it is. I am tired of the demonization of each side. I have flown with many former AT folks and have had no issues.
The future is what we decide it is.....my grandchildren kind of like me.
The Oscar
I just spent 20+ minutes only to have what I said dumped. You and I have had some honest discussions back and forth. Since I don't wish to spend much more time this evening going over old AT/SWA news I will condense it into minimal statement.
AT was not a lesser airline, it was a younger airline that had spurts in growth with a demographic different from SWA. A relative/DOH integration was not popular at SWA. Therefore I believed retaining Captains seats was a reasonable compromise. My fellow pilots at SWA and the pilots at AT had much different ideas as to what was reasonable. Positions were made and ultimately a cost/benefit analysis was made by both sides. The vote is what it is. I am tired of the demonization of each side. I have flown with many former AT folks and have had no issues.
The future is what we decide it is.....my grandchildren kind of like me.
The Oscar
I think I've shown that that I'm not out to demonize any group. I this and the other SWA thread, I've mostly just stated how things would most likely be viewed from an arbitrators view and I've explained the selfish reasons I have for doing so.
My posts have supported both sides in this debate. Yes. AT captain seats would have been treated the same as SWA captain seats by an arbitrator, because after the merger, they would have been paid the same. But, an arbitrator also would have taken any unequal rates of retirements between the lists into account, too.
I just call it like I see it and from what I've seen, you guys were fighting long before I got here. But, I'm sure guys like you will eventually work things out. The above post proves it.
05-26-2015 | 11:01 AM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
On the other shoe, do you still run into NWA pilots who constantly complain about how they perceive that Delta screwed them or never pass up an opportunity to tell you who they're going to "get even" some day? And if you you did, what would you say to that pilot?
I can say that I ran into more than one dissatisfied NWA pilot back when the situation was still raw. I don't go around trying to pick at the scab or needle you guys every chance I get.
I get that your picture was light hearted and I thought it was funny, but it would have been funnier if the guy had a puppy he was going to hit with the hammer.
I can say that I ran into more than one dissatisfied NWA pilot back when the situation was still raw. I don't go around trying to pick at the scab or needle you guys every chance I get.
I get that your picture was light hearted and I thought it was funny, but it would have been funnier if the guy had a puppy he was going to hit with the hammer.
I think you guys were picking the scab long before I got here. I just gave my informed opinion on how some of your views were likely to be viewed by an arbitrator. If you look, you will see, myopinions supported both sides. No scab picking really, until people started remember things differently than I remembered them. Then I had to go back to make sure I remembered things correctly.
I think Andy asked for the source, it just took me a while to find it.
05-26-2015 | 01:52 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 998
Likes: 0
From: B737/Capt
Good post, Oscar.
I think I've shown that that I'm not out to demonize any group. I this and the other SWA thread, I've mostly just stated how things would most likely be viewed from an arbitrators view and I've explained the selfish reasons I have for doing so.
My posts have supported both sides in this debate. Yes. AT captain seats would have been treated the same as SWA captain seats by an arbitrator, because after the merger, they would have been paid the same. But, an arbitrator also would have taken any unequal rates of retirements between the lists into account, too.
I just call it like I see it and from what I've seen, you guys were fighting long before I got here. But, I'm sure guys like you will eventually work things out. The above post proves it.
I think I've shown that that I'm not out to demonize any group. I this and the other SWA thread, I've mostly just stated how things would most likely be viewed from an arbitrators view and I've explained the selfish reasons I have for doing so.
My posts have supported both sides in this debate. Yes. AT captain seats would have been treated the same as SWA captain seats by an arbitrator, because after the merger, they would have been paid the same. But, an arbitrator also would have taken any unequal rates of retirements between the lists into account, too.
I just call it like I see it and from what I've seen, you guys were fighting long before I got here. But, I'm sure guys like you will eventually work things out. The above post proves it.
I think you are straight up (that is a good thing I am told). No demonization implied on your part. Others........well yeah...both sides.
Would you agree that arbitrators rulings over the last 30+ years have included major input by ALPA? The one decision that caused a huge upheaval was the Nicolai award. Two airlines with huge differences in demographics similar to the SWA/AT situation. Both represented by ALPA. Throw in USAir folks on furlough given "lesser value" in the award. What a mess that was and still is. It is my opinion that the arbitrators currently in the mix are "schooled" in the ALPA way of doing things. With the SWA/AT SLI possibly going into arbitration I for one thought the results would be skewed because of ALPA bias. No wonder the AT pilots dropped NPA for ALPA knowing that their airline was a takeover target. I think I mentioned that SWAPA is not ALPA.
I would have been okay no matter what happened in arbitration. For reasons that have nothing to do with any of the opinions on APC. I am at peace with what resulted. Others pushed the envelope and lost. I DON'T CARE ANYMORE......really I don't.
NK, I understand your positions and arguments. All facts and good discussions. I just disagree......respectfully.
The Oscar
05-26-2015 | 03:21 PM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 998
Likes: 0
From: B737/Capt
NK,
I think you are straight up (that is a good thing I am told). No demonization implied on your part. Others........well yeah...both sides.
Would you agree that arbitrators rulings over the last 30+ years have included major input by ALPA? The one decision that caused a huge upheaval was the Nicolai award. Two airlines with huge differences in demographics similar to the SWA/AT situation. Both represented by ALPA. Throw in USAir folks on furlough given "lesser value" in the award. What a mess that was and still is. It is my opinion that the arbitrators currently in the mix are "schooled" in the ALPA way of doing things. With the SWA/AT SLI possibly going into arbitration I for one thought the results would be skewed because of ALPA bias. No wonder the AT pilots dropped NPA for ALPA knowing that their airline was a takeover target. I think I mentioned that SWAPA is not ALPA.
I would have been okay no matter what happened in arbitration. For reasons that have nothing to do with any of the opinions on APC. I am at peace with what resulted. Others pushed the envelope and lost. I DON'T CARE ANYMORE......really I don't.
NK, I understand your positions and arguments. All facts and good discussions. I just disagree......respectfully.
The Oscar
I think you are straight up (that is a good thing I am told). No demonization implied on your part. Others........well yeah...both sides.
Would you agree that arbitrators rulings over the last 30+ years have included major input by ALPA? The one decision that caused a huge upheaval was the Nicolai award. Two airlines with huge differences in demographics similar to the SWA/AT situation. Both represented by ALPA. Throw in USAir folks on furlough given "lesser value" in the award. What a mess that was and still is. It is my opinion that the arbitrators currently in the mix are "schooled" in the ALPA way of doing things. With the SWA/AT SLI possibly going into arbitration I for one thought the results would be skewed because of ALPA bias. No wonder the AT pilots dropped NPA for ALPA knowing that their airline was a takeover target. I think I mentioned that SWAPA is not ALPA.
I would have been okay no matter what happened in arbitration. For reasons that have nothing to do with any of the opinions on APC. I am at peace with what resulted. Others pushed the envelope and lost. I DON'T CARE ANYMORE......really I don't.
NK, I understand your positions and arguments. All facts and good discussions. I just disagree......respectfully.
The Oscar
05-26-2015 | 11:05 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,385
Likes: 0
From: 737 Right
I think you guys were picking the scab long before I got here. I just gave my informed opinion on how some of your views were likely to be viewed by an arbitrator. If you look, you will see, myopinions supported both sides. No scab picking really, until people started remember things differently than I remembered them. Then I had to go back to make sure I remembered things correctly.
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