Originally Posted by shoelu

It was absolutely never said that:
"SWAPA and SWA had an agreement and made the SW pilots aware that there was NO INTENTION OF IMPLEMENTING A SENIORITY LIST FROM AN ARBITRATED AWARD." If you listened to that call you know this to be true.

Any such agreement would have neccisitated running AirTran separately which would have required membership ratification for any length of time past 24 months which was allowed in the SWAPA CBA for an acquisition.

The ONLY way to maneuver around the Mccaskill-Bond statute would have been to not combine multiple air carriers into a single air carrier. Not combining the carriers is strictly prohibited by Section 1 of the SWAPA CBA. That section could ONLY be modified as outlined in the CBA and modification is not allowed without membership ratification. Without a vote to scrap the industry leading scope clause it couldn't happen.

Mccaskill-Bond states:

The statute applies when two or more air carriers are involved in a "covered transaction," described as:

A transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier;

Originally Posted by Brakes Set

So many things wrong with your statement above.

How about this. On that phone - one of the many questions dealing with the worry by SW pilots that SWAPA and SWA agreed to the language, signed the document which talked about going to arbitration. 1. Do you remember the answer given by a "KEY INDIVIDUAL" ?

You said you were on the phone call. After listening to that call -
Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ? That is the real question ?

To expand on another answer given by a SWAPA NC "KEY INDIVIDUAL"-

Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots? Better yet, also answered in the phone call , that so many deny, where in that process agreement does it spell out the implementation schedule if there is an arbitrator's award. I say award because that is the phrase used - remember Shoelu? We can go all day.

Originally Posted by shoelu

Do you understand what a scope clause is?

Do you understand that the SWAPA CBA does not allow any alter ego carriers or any domestic code share?

Do you understand that any operation of AirTran as a seperate entity is strictly prohibited by the aforementioned scope clause?

Do you understand any change in the scope clause requires membership ratification through a membership ratification vote?

Do you understand that no agreement could be made between SWA and SWAPA to not integrate AT without a membership vote to allow a violation of the scope clause?

Let's start there, you tell me which part you don't understand and I'll explain it using small words.

Originally Posted by Brakes Set

Shoelu, do you think an Arbitrated list would have been implemented by SWA if it was considered onerous by SWAPA ?
Any arbitrated list would most definitely have been implemented by Southwest Airlines, there was no other legal option.

A. SCOPE
This Agreement covers all revenue and miscellaneous flying, performed with aircraft owned or leased by the Company, or which displays Company markings, including all flying in and for the service of the Company and its affiliates. All flying covered by this Agreement shall be performed by pilots whose names appear on the Southwest Airlines Master Pilot Seniority List
C. MERGERS AND FRAGMENTATION
1. Mergers
In the event of a transaction or series of transactions with an air carrier or any person or entity that owns or controls or is owned or controlled by an air carrier, which may result the Company will require, as an irrevocable condition of such transaction or series of transactions, that the transferee will offer full-time regular employment to all pilots employed within the bargaining unit on the date of the transaction, provide such pilots with the seniority integration procedures established under Sections 3 and 13 of the “Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protection Provisions”, 59 CAB 22 (1972), (including accepting the pilot seniority list obtained through that process as the pilot seniority list of the merged carrier), and maintain the statutory status quo of rates of pay, rules and working conditions established under this Agreement pending such operational merger. Pending any period of separate operation prior to operational merger and integration of collective bargaining agreements and pilot seniority lists, which shall be no longer than twenty-four (24) months..

(c) If the Merger Committees (subject to applicable governance provisions of SWAPA and ALPA, respectively) reach a complete agreement regarding the integration of their respective seniority lists (whether during negotiations, mediation, or arbitration), it shall be accepted by Southwest.

Shoulu, tell me where in the Process Agreement, that everyone signed, when would your CBA apply to the AirTran Pilots?
The date a single collective bargaining representative is recognized as the sole bargaining agent for the combined craft and class, in accordance with the RLA; and
ii. The issuance date of an FAA Single Operating Certificate

where in that process agreement does it spell out the implementation schedule if there is an arbitrator's award.
g) The Final Award shall be final and binding on the Parties to this Agreement, on their successor and assigns, and on the pilots employed by the Companies and their affiliates. The Final Award shall include the date on which the Integrated Master Seniority List will become effective, which will be either a date agreed upon by the parties or, if they do not agree, a date determined by the Panel.

Originally Posted by Brakes Set

Using your small words, if it makes it easier for you, can you tell all of us why you never answered any of my questions above? Look at my questions again - let's start there.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

Originally Posted by newKnow

Here's a blast from the past:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...-thoughts.html

Originally Posted by OscartheGrouch

Exactly what is your reason for stirring things up? It is obviously fun for some to inflict/cause pain. If there is a chance that all the perceived wrongs will be corrected in the future....I am all ears. Otherwise this is just noise.

The Oscar

BTW NK and all Delta folks. It is a good thing that the internet was almost non existent and this website did not exist when the Pan Am screw job went down in '91.

Originally Posted by newKnow

It's mostly for the same reason I mentioned in the other thread. If I remember correctly, I joined these new discussions when I stated that AT captain seats were the same as SWA captain seats, which was met with angst by some SWA guys.

In the mean time, you guys have also been acting like Brakes is nuts for remembering things the way he does. But, maybe not.


I got hired by Northwest in 1995 and I am thankful that we weren't treated by Delta pilots they way some of you have been discounting and dismissing the Air Tran guys.

I never heard anyone call NWA a lesser airline 4-5 years AFTER the merger. Sure, it was heated at first. But, 4 years later, we were concentrated on getting a new contract, not diminishing the other side of the SLI.

Maybe some of this inflicted pain should be attributed elsewhere and away from me.

You're a good guy, Oscar. I remember you called out some of your own guys for disrespecting a Frontier pilots wife. I'm sure if anyone can smooth things over as an honest broker, it's you.

Good luck.