Pilot7576

Seems to me a lot depends on what type of flying you enjoy (or hate). Also, where do you want to live? If you're already set in a swa domicile, that would be hard to pass up (assuming you could hold it short term, ie bwi/oak/mdw). If you have a long commute, ups gets the advantage due to longer block scheduling of not only trips but reserve. I have talked to a lot of swa pilots (among others) that commute 2 or more legs to work and it really drags them down and negatively affects qol.

I think ups will be worth more bucksin the long run, with greater job security, but the culture at swa is more pilot friendly (from what I've seen and heard). However, if you have any desire to fly intl or widebodies, you should factor that into your equation as well. Flying at ups or fedex is closer to mil flying than any of the pax airlines I think. Sitting the sort drinking coffee while solving the problems of the world (and failing to take notes) reminds me of the ready room atmosphere in the navy.

If I were in your shoes, I would go to swa (yeah, I know the type costs some bucks) and keep an open mind. If and when ups calls you, you can make your final decision then. Like the man said, a bird in the hand......

Good luck and good flying,

Pilot7576

ryane946

Where do you live??
Do you live in Florida, Southern California, Alaska, or Kentucy. If so, I would say definately UPS.
If you live in Las Vegas, Washington DC, Texas, Chicago, Phoenix, or Northern California, I would say Southwest would maybe be a better choice.


Rickair is right when he said that UPS is a much more stable job. Remember that Southwest has been losing money if you exclude fuel hedges for several of the last quarters. Fuel is an airline's largest expense, and when the price doubles, you might see their balance sheets turn red. Remember that they run a somewhat inefficient point to point route map as opposed to the traditional hub and spoke method. This can be seen by the fact that they have the industry's LOWEST load factor in the vicinity of 70% (as opposed to 85% at most other majors). They also have no lucrative international routes. Now that United and US Air have emerged from bankruptcy as lean, mean, airline machines, and Delta and Northwest will eventually emerge from bankruptcy, Southwest will have a tougher time competing against the powerful legacy airlines as opposed to when they were high cost entities.

Back to UPS, it is hard to start up a cargo airline that can compete with UPS and FedEx because of their massive systems. They can pretty much raise prices as they please to cover costs. An airline like Southwest cannot raise fares without losing market share. And any Joe Shmo can start up an airline like Skybus or Virgin America that fly few routes, but can take market share from Southwest, and charge customers less.

I know I am being a little harsh, but your entire career is dependent upon this choice. All in all, you are in a good position (I wish I was in your predicament). If you live in a UPS domicile, definately go UPS. If you live in a Southwest domicilie, consider Southwest. Otherwise, look at the two companies, and their VERY DIFFERENT industries, and choose which you is the best for you. Personally I would choose UPS.
Good luck with your decision.

fly2ski

Had to make the same decision 12 years ago. FDX or SWA. Went to FDX and never looked back. You won't work nearly as hard at FDX fly more destinations, different aircraft, layover at home or any number of international destinations. No passengers to deal with and you won't be on your third flight attendant wife when you retire. Make more money ect. ect.ect. But you might like SWA good luck, and congrats. Lots of guys and gals would love to be in your shoes.

Stetson20

Could you post your flight hour numbers for some insight on your qualifications? Also, did you have one (or more) recs from someone working for either company? TIA

corl737

Congrats on having a decision to make. The decision really boils down to one of your personality and goals. I'd recommend thinking seriously about the questions I'm getting ready to ask:
1) Do you feel comfortable possibly being in your senior airplane the first day on the job?
2) Do you have a need to fly big, heavy, wide, and long? (I call it "fuselage envy")
3) Do you desire to have a lot of personal interaction with many different people while at work? (Flight Attendants, passengers, and the general public.)
4) Is money your primary goal? (Total career earnings projectors are just that ... projections. It wasn't long ago that a 747 Capt made more than a 737 driver. Hopefully the pay scale will correct itself but we're all just one contract away from working our way DOWN the ladder of success.)
5) Do you look good in brown? (Not me!)

I posted this link in a different thread but recommend that you view this short video before you make your choice. The bottom line is that SWA doesn't want you if you simply want to be a pilot, locked up front behind the Kevlar door. You have to want to become involved with the entire workforce and be willing to do whatever it takes to keep the operation moving.

Jackie Frieberg's Video on SWA hiring: http://www.freibergs.com/keynotes-videos-jackie13.html

So, if you think you'd like SWA, come on over! You're in the enviable position of being able to dip a toe in the kool-aid (so to speak) and find out first hand if it's really what you want. Then, if/when UPS calls down the road you can make an informed decision whether to stay or go.

Good luck!

Freightpuppy

My thoughts exactly.

If I were to get offered a class date at both, I would take UPS just for the fact that you are not relying on flying passengers to keep your airline afloat. There are a lot of things to consider though.

Velocipede

Lots of good advice here. Basicly it boils down to this: Take the SWA job but stay in the UPS pool. If UPS offers you a job and you're not enamoured with flying "carbon based revenue generators" around, jump ship.

Given the choice between passengers and freighters, I prefer to fly freight. Boxes don't ***** and you don't have to get permission from a F/A to take a leak.

L'il J.Seinfeld

I can relate to your dilemma. When I walked out of the UPS interview and called my wife she told me that SWA had just called with an interview. At lunch during the SWA interview PM from UPS called me with a class date. During my first week of ground school at UPS, SWA called with the congrats call but they did not have classes for a few months.

I am huge on corporate culture. During my first 6 months at Brown it was tense. That was the summer of 2005. Everyone was on edge and the strike talk/contract rhetoric was agonizing for me. I very seriously considered leaving at the 6 month point to take the SWA class. Someone gave me the advice of not taking the rhetoric seriously and that it was typical during negotiations so I stayed.

I am very glad I did. IMO SWA takes care of you by making you feel appreciated and valued. I think they do this, and have to do it, because they lack so many of the benefits that UPSers take for granted. Our health plans are better than what I had in the military. I don't know anyone at UPS that blocks more than 400 hours a year. So I think we are home more and work a lot less hard than SWA guys.

UPS has a culture of dealing with labor in an adversarial role. This is not as bad as I once thought. I have been treated very well when I had 2 separate family emergencies. All of my training has been phenomenol. We just have a more spartan environment at our gateways and cafeterias/facilities than SWA does. With the new contract it will get a lot better as they put in beds in place of lazy boys and improve the crew lounges.

UPS flies to more locations in China than any other airline pax or cargo. We are poised to double profits in the next 5 years and almost all of it is coming through the airline portion of UPS. I decided that having the most stable job in the industry was worth more than having a nice cafeteria while in training.

As far as money goes consider this. If a 2d year FO at SWA and UPS get a $6000 paycheck after taxes it is not the same thing. The UPS guy also gets about $900 deposited for him into his B plan. The SWA guy has to take money out of his paycheck to fund his 401k in order the get SWA to match.

UPS has a fantastic fleet and flies almost everywhere in the world. You could fly an MD-11 into Borat's home in Kazakstan, a 747-400 into Sydney or stay close to home and fly an A-300 or 757 around the states. With our single pay scale, lateral movements are a lot easier than at the pax carriers or FedEx. I've been here 2 years and can hold any FO seat I want. New hires will probably go to ANC though. The upside is that you could be an MD-11 capt there in 3-4 years or bid back to ONT, MIA, or SDF after a few years.

IMO UPS is the best or 2d best flying job. (FedEx has phenomenol pay rates for 2d year FOs on widebodies) SWA is the best pax carrier. Looking back it was an easy decision for me. If I was you I would take the first class date offered and I would quit SWA to start at UPS if the situtation occurred. Best of luck and be thankful you have this 'problem'.

SNAFU

Problem is he doesn't have a bird in hand yet. This is a tough decision, and illustrates why UPS's pool situation is so shiatty. If they pulled you out in order, I would definitely wait for the class date and save the 6000 for the type rating. Since they don't pull you out in order, you could languish for years and still never get pulled out.

Now if you are really happy and secure with what you are doing now and can wait, it would make sense to save the money and wait for UPS to call. Chances are you will only wait a few months. Meanwhile you just tell SW that you are going to get your type (you have 6 months) and hope UPS calls.

IF UPS hasn't called in 5 months, get the type and go to class at SW as soon as you can. IF that happens, and then UPS calls with a class date, you will then have a real decision to make.

Given the fact that you could sit in the brown pool indefinitely I would go get the type (if I could afford it) and get in the first class available at SW.

That is about the best you can do, and hopefully you will get to make the decision sooner than later.

YAKflyer

The point here is to take the first job offered by either. He sounds like he is going to get an offer from SWA. Likely he will make enough $$$ flying for SWA (compaired to what he might make flying for a regional) while he waits for UPS to more than make up for what he spends on the type rating. The fact that the rating is tax deductable make it even cheaper. If SWA would hire him and he could fly for them for a while before UPS calls could be a great opportunity to see what it would be like to stay there. Might give him the chance to make a more informed decision when UPS calls........