ShyGuy

"I don't like what you said, so go back where you came from"

I'm not from the Middle East. Something about this election cycle has really gotten to some people.

Gillegan

Lots of pretty strong language here but not one specific yet you decry anyone who disagrees here on a "PROFESSIONAL PILOT'S FORUM".

First off, I don't believe this is NAI. It's NAS which has an AOC in Norway (could be the UK by now - they have moved their certificates). Right now, their bases are in Europe and comply with European labor laws so actually, ALPA won that battle. I don't believe they have the Bangkok base any more for pilots. (By the way, when they did, virtually all of the Bangkok based pilots were western and ALL had European licenses so the ALPA propaganda was just plain wrong on that front.) That kind of blows away the "flag of convenience" argument - they are not registering their aircraft outside of Europe and they are operating under the auspices of European regulation.

Lets talk about this one because the "why" is important. They ARE a direct threat but that's because they are depressing yields and profits over the Atlantic with their low cost model. Let's see, how does that work; 1 fleet, high productivity, point-to-point. Sound familiar? It remains to be seen whether their long haul operation is making any money and certainly the conditions of the job on offer that we are discussing are pretty crappy. Sounds like a market thing to me.

I too would like to think that the T&C's are too low to attract the numbers and experience that they would need. I also think that, rather than continue to vilify the pilots who might actually be bettering their lot with this job, that ALPA take the opportunity to court and try to organize those pilots from day 1. The precedent is there with the N. America NAS FA's and after all, isn't that what unions do?

The thing that has really annoyed me about this ALPA drive against NAI is that many (not all) of their arguments were factually wrong. It was a campaign that appealed to emotion with fatuous sound bites like "flag of convenience". If we're to be honest here, ALPA opposes this BUSINESS MODEL because it threatens to upend the status quo of high yield international flying over the Atlantic which in turn will effect legacy profits which in turn will put pilot wages under pressure. At least be honest about that.

Real question: do U.S./union pilots have the right to oppose a new business model that is legal, simply because it threatens their status quo? (right now, Norwegian is complying with much of what ALPA originally complained about - third country regulators and bases that skirt home country/western labor laws)

Molon Labe

Gilligan, ask any merchant mariner how it went when lawyers sharpshooter the flagging laws....legal right is much like the meaning of the word is.....
Some things are inherently wrong...

Molon Labe

Me thinks thou doth protest too much!

Gillegan

Many keep trotting out the "flag of convenience" argument. I'm asking you to be specific.

My understanding was that much of the merchant marine fleet was reflagged in third world countries, meaning they were regulated and taxed in places like Liberia while profits flowed to their western owners. In the meantime, those ships were re-crewed with low-cost third-world sailors who had few labor protections, either in their own countries or in the countries of registry.

Explain to me how what Norwegian is doing today (not what they tried to do with Thailand/Ireland and were unsuccessful) falls within those walls. Seriously, am I missing something? Tell me what is inherently wrong here.

The pay and conditions suck but that's not against any laws.

intrepidcv11

Where ever you are from, clearly you missed out on the importance of breaking up a long winded argument into multiple paragraphs.

Molon Labe

You have been in the middle East too long"Camel s nose in tent" is what this round is about......this whole thing stinks! If you like it well fine! You were warned.....

Gillegan

What, are we in the sixth grade?

Molon Labe

Nice attempted comeback lacking in substance....The pattern of flag of convenience is so well set that it all repeats itself including this...Try something better!

Gillegan

I did. You refused to engage. I'm asking you to be a little more specific than "it is because I said so". Go back and read my posts. How specifically does what is going on now fall within the flag of convenience model? Unless you're saying that south Florida is the third world.

I'm trying to engage in reasoned debate. I don't mind be proven wrong if you show me the facts and logical arguments to do it. Maybe there's something I've missed. My point is that much of this debate is filled with incorrect "facts" and emotional arguments.

I'm a big believer that if there is a problem, you don't solve the problem unless you have ACCURATELY identified the problem. Kind of like trying to reset a generator when the reason it failed is the engine quit. I really think that one reason that we've seen a decline in the effectiveness of pilot's unions and a subsequent decline in our working conditions (something that appears to be reversing - yeah!) is ALPA has misidentified the threats and problems over the years due partly to their historic predisposition to protect the most senior, sometimes at the expense of EVERYONE else.