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Pre 9/11 payscales

Old 02-24-2007, 07:00 PM
  #21  
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Doooh!! Potential regifting coming up. I'm sure my mom would love nothing better for Mother's Day
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Old 02-24-2007, 08:20 PM
  #22  
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I'm not a business major, but I will ask one question...

Exactly HOW LONG did those great contracts rate last? Even before those sons of *****es hit the towers, Delta and United were hurting and the economy was slowing as the stock market bubble imploded.

I'm a strong ALPA guy. I love my company, but I understand that my UNION (and the other unions out there) created these great work rules and benefits, not the benevolence of my employer. Still...to pay 300 bills an hour, a company has got to make money, period. You cannot pay what you don't have. No furlough clauses, A plans, pay scales, and work rules all get flushed as soon as chapter 11 is declared, and judges--not MEC presidents--make the call.

I don't know exactly WHERE the line between "nice" and "unfeasible" lies. You have to have negotiators who are business saavy enough to find a solid compensation package that will not kill the golden goose. At the same time--we all know that some companies have gutted employee benefits while rewarding poor management along the way. That ain't right either...

However--the whole "FedEx and UPS (and SWA as well) are just catching up..." ignores a point. FedEx, UPS, SWA, and even JB and Airtran pilots have had a job the last 5-7 years. If you look at career earnings, the guy who was hired at Jetblue in 2001 may just end up making more for 5, 10, or even 15 years than the poor bastard furloughed for 5-7 years at AA, DAL, or UAL. I am quite confident that the guys at SWA, UPS, and FDX certainly will.

What is my point? When you choose a company, pay scales are a tiny part of the matrix. Q of life, benefits, employee relations, and stability are all also a big part of the decision. There are a lot of guys at SWA, FDX, and UPS who made a DELIBERATE decsion to choose stability over high pay scales. For the last 6 years, it appears that they made a good choice. Chasing Delta or UAL payscales in 2000 was a lot like buying Qualcomm at 200+ bucks...it was sweet while it lasted but it just really wasn't sustainable. However--the trip pay at SWA and better than 200 bucks an hour at UPS/FDX apparently ARE sustainable with their business models. I hope that doesn't change for the worse.
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Old 02-24-2007, 09:53 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Albief15 View Post
I'm not a business major, but I will ask one question...

Exactly HOW LONG did those great contracts rate last? Even before those sons of *****es hit the towers, Delta and United were hurting and the economy was slowing as the stock market bubble imploded.

I'm a strong ALPA guy. I love my company, but I understand that my UNION (and the other unions out there) created these great work rules and benefits, not the benevolence of my employer. Still...to pay 300 bills an hour, a company has got to make money, period. You cannot pay what you don't have. No furlough clauses, A plans, pay scales, and work rules all get flushed as soon as chapter 11 is declared, and judges--not MEC presidents--make the call.

I don't know exactly WHERE the line between "nice" and "unfeasible" lies. You have to have negotiators who are business saavy enough to find a solid compensation package that will not kill the golden goose. At the same time--we all know that some companies have gutted employee benefits while rewarding poor management along the way. That ain't right either...

However--the whole "FedEx and UPS (and SWA as well) are just catching up..." ignores a point. FedEx, UPS, SWA, and even JB and Airtran pilots have had a job the last 5-7 years. If you look at career earnings, the guy who was hired at Jetblue in 2001 may just end up making more for 5, 10, or even 15 years than the poor bastard furloughed for 5-7 years at AA, DAL, or UAL. I am quite confident that the guys at SWA, UPS, and FDX certainly will.

What is my point? When you choose a company, pay scales are a tiny part of the matrix. Q of life, benefits, employee relations, and stability are all also a big part of the decision. There are a lot of guys at SWA, FDX, and UPS who made a DELIBERATE decsion to choose stability over high pay scales. For the last 6 years, it appears that they made a good choice. Chasing Delta or UAL payscales in 2000 was a lot like buying Qualcomm at 200+ bucks...it was sweet while it lasted but it just really wasn't sustainable. However--the trip pay at SWA and better than 200 bucks an hour at UPS/FDX apparently ARE sustainable with their business models. I hope that doesn't change for the worse.
You bucking for a MGT job............???

Companies have professional negotiators and Know all the numbers before they sign a contract. They won't sign a contract that they can't afford to pay. To say (MGT) couldn't afford the pre 9/11 contracts at the time is ludicrous. Yes financial pictures change, but having been in the industry for over 20 years, the labor MGT relation hasn't changed much. You get what you negotiate period. MGT will never pass up the opportunity to attempt to pay as little as possible even if they can afford more. When the lean times come Pilots have historically always coughed up pay concessions. When times get better (as we are currently seeing) MGT has never come to Labor and said, "you helped with Pay cuts during the lean times, now that things have turned around, here is a little pay raise for the effort"

It's best to Always go for the gold. If you have to settle for Silver or Bronze so be it. And sometimes you won't win a medal but vieing for one anyway is how things get done.

To say FedEx will always be Stable or will never have financial problems is beeting on the come........if 9/11 occurred with Fedex and UPS jets instead of AA and UAL my bet is we would have furloughed when we got shut down for a few weeks.............or if ol' Auburn would have succeeded.
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Old 02-24-2007, 11:06 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r View Post
if 9/11 occurred with Fedex and UPS jets instead of AA and UAL my bet is we would have furloughed when we got shut down for a few weeks.
I doubt it.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:25 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Albief15 View Post
However--the whole "FedEx and UPS (and SWA as well) are just catching up..." ignores a point. FedEx, UPS, SWA, and even JB and Airtran pilots have had a job the last 5-7 years. If you look at career earnings, the guy who was hired at Jetblue in 2001 may just end up making more for 5, 10, or even 15 years than the poor bastard furloughed for 5-7 years at AA, DAL, or UAL. I am quite confident that the guys at SWA, UPS, and FDX certainly will.
I've read you on here for years now and have always agreed for the most part with you, but this I have to disagree with.

"$300 bills" an hour doesn't cover (and please read this carefully):


When you see a pilot going through the same security you go through,
he's not being paid.

When you see a pilot walking in the terminal, he's not being paid.

When you see a pilot at the gate pulling up paper work, planning the
flight, and conferring with the agent, he's not being paid.

When you see a pilot walking around the aircraft doing a preflight
inspection, he's not being paid.

When you board the aircraft and look in the cockpit and see the pilots
setting up the aircraft, they're not getting paid.

When you land safely at your destination and walk off the aircraft and
see the pilots shutting down the aircraft, they're not being paid.

When you see a pilot waiting for a ride to a hotel for the night, he's
not being paid.

The only time the pilot of your aircraft is getting paid is when you
DON"T see him... when he's locked behind the cockpit door as you push back from the gate. Every thing else he does until this point is for free. For no wages. Nothing!

The average airline pilot is at work for 12- 14 hours per day, yet gets
paid for less than 6 - 7 hours.

The average airline pilot is away from home, at work, for 70+ hours a
week, yet gets paid for only 15 to 18 hours per weeks work.

Most pilots schedules have them working 15 days or more a month... that
means they are not at home half the month.

Holidays, weekends, birthdays, anniversaries, summer vacations.... not
at home.

A majority of pilots have 4 year college degrees, or more. Then they
begin training as pilots.

A large majority of Pilots have spent 8 years or more flying in the military, risking their lives and protecting your freedom for wages most of you wouldn't accept in the civilian world.

Civilian trained pilots have spent $50,000 or more to acquire the training that qualifies them for a Regional Airline job, which pays a wage less than the poverty level in most western countries.

Most pilots do not attain the required experience level to be hired by a major airline until they are well passed the age of 30. The average age
of a new hire airline pilot is 32.

Airline pilots are required to retire at the age of 60. This gives most of them less than 28 years to maximize their income and fund their pensions, hoping that greedy airline execs won't steal it.

Airline pilots are subject to random drug and alcohol testing, any time
they are at work. Fail it and they lose their job.

Airline pilots are required to undergo rigorous re-training and certification every 6 to 9 months, at which time they could fail and lose their jobs, licenses and livelihood.

Airline pilots are required to submit to random government "Line checks"
during which their license could be revoked and livelihood destroyed.

Airline pilots are exposed to radiation levels far exceeding the normal
safe radiation limits mandated by the FDA.

Airline pilots are required to submit to a government medical
examination every 6 months (Captains) and 12 months as First Officers. Year after year. Fail that, and their career is over.

How many of you go to work where people try to kill you? How many of
you have had your office turned into a cruise missile? How many of you work behind a bullet proof door?

How many of you are responsible for the lives of 200- 300 people, with
any small mistake in your performance resulting in the death of your
customers (and yourselves), and the financial destruction of your company?

How many of your jobs require you to fight your way through thunderstorms, rain, snow, ice and turbulence, day and night, year after year? No mistakes allowed? The excuse " I had a bad day at work" never accepted?

Many pilots volunteer (on their own time and own dime) to be trained as
Federal Flight Deck Officers, and carry weapons to defend their aircraft,
crew and passengers. They maintain their proficiency and qualifications
twice a year on their own time and money.

How many of you go to work where you are searched, patted down and your personal items scrutinized by strangers, even though you can kill
everyone in your place of work with your two bare hands?

Airline pilot pay scales and hours worked are usually posted by absurdly
overcompensated Airline Exec's who are waging a PR campaign against
their Pilot Unions and trying to justify their own greedy bonus's and
draconian wage and pension cuts. Cheap ass airline passengers just love this **** since they don't care if their airplane is flown by the lowest
denominator, as long as they can fly for next to nothing. Course if they don't get to their destination, their next of kin can sue....
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Old 02-26-2007, 07:36 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by CE750 View Post
I've read you on here for years now and have always agreed for the most part with you, but this I have to disagree with.

"$300 bills" an hour doesn't cover (and please read this carefully):


When you see a pilot going through the same security you go through,
he's not being paid.

When you see a pilot walking in the terminal, he's not being paid.

When you see a pilot at the gate pulling up paper work, planning the
flight, and conferring with the agent, he's not being paid.

When you see a pilot walking around the aircraft doing a preflight
inspection, he's not being paid.

When you board the aircraft and look in the cockpit and see the pilots
setting up the aircraft, they're not getting paid.

When you land safely at your destination and walk off the aircraft and
see the pilots shutting down the aircraft, they're not being paid.

When you see a pilot waiting for a ride to a hotel for the night, he's
not being paid.

The only time the pilot of your aircraft is getting paid is when you
DON"T see him... when he's locked behind the cockpit door as you push back from the gate. Every thing else he does until this point is for free. For no wages. Nothing!

The average airline pilot is at work for 12- 14 hours per day, yet gets
paid for less than 6 - 7 hours.

The average airline pilot is away from home, at work, for 70+ hours a
week, yet gets paid for only 15 to 18 hours per weeks work.

Most pilots schedules have them working 15 days or more a month... that
means they are not at home half the month.

Holidays, weekends, birthdays, anniversaries, summer vacations.... not
at home.

A majority of pilots have 4 year college degrees, or more. Then they
begin training as pilots.

A large majority of Pilots have spent 8 years or more flying in the military, risking their lives and protecting your freedom for wages most of you wouldn't accept in the civilian world.

Civilian trained pilots have spent $50,000 or more to acquire the training that qualifies them for a Regional Airline job, which pays a wage less than the poverty level in most western countries.

Most pilots do not attain the required experience level to be hired by a major airline until they are well passed the age of 30. The average age
of a new hire airline pilot is 32.

Airline pilots are required to retire at the age of 60. This gives most of them less than 28 years to maximize their income and fund their pensions, hoping that greedy airline execs won't steal it.

Airline pilots are subject to random drug and alcohol testing, any time
they are at work. Fail it and they lose their job.

Airline pilots are required to undergo rigorous re-training and certification every 6 to 9 months, at which time they could fail and lose their jobs, licenses and livelihood.

Airline pilots are required to submit to random government "Line checks"
during which their license could be revoked and livelihood destroyed.

Airline pilots are exposed to radiation levels far exceeding the normal
safe radiation limits mandated by the FDA.

Airline pilots are required to submit to a government medical
examination every 6 months (Captains) and 12 months as First Officers. Year after year. Fail that, and their career is over.

How many of you go to work where people try to kill you? How many of
you have had your office turned into a cruise missile? How many of you work behind a bullet proof door?

How many of you are responsible for the lives of 200- 300 people, with
any small mistake in your performance resulting in the death of your
customers (and yourselves), and the financial destruction of your company?

How many of your jobs require you to fight your way through thunderstorms, rain, snow, ice and turbulence, day and night, year after year? No mistakes allowed? The excuse " I had a bad day at work" never accepted?

Many pilots volunteer (on their own time and own dime) to be trained as
Federal Flight Deck Officers, and carry weapons to defend their aircraft,
crew and passengers. They maintain their proficiency and qualifications
twice a year on their own time and money.

How many of you go to work where you are searched, patted down and your personal items scrutinized by strangers, even though you can kill
everyone in your place of work with your two bare hands?

Airline pilot pay scales and hours worked are usually posted by absurdly
overcompensated Airline Exec's who are waging a PR campaign against
their Pilot Unions and trying to justify their own greedy bonus's and
draconian wage and pension cuts. Cheap ass airline passengers just love this **** since they don't care if their airplane is flown by the lowest
denominator, as long as they can fly for next to nothing. Course if they don't get to their destination, their next of kin can sue....
Amen brother!

As I say to my friends, "Why does that doctor earn $800K a year and noone questions whether he/she deserves it? He/she only has 1 person's life in their hands at a time. I have 150 and have spent just as much time and about as much schooling getting there". I think the answer is that they don't work for greedy CEOs.
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Old 02-26-2007, 07:39 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Jettubby View Post
"Why does that doctor earn $800K a year
In all honesty, not that many doctors earn $800k a year. That's like saying "why does that airline pilot only works 6 days a month and earn $350k?"
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Old 02-26-2007, 09:24 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by BoilerUP View Post
In all honesty, not that many doctors earn $800k a year. That's like saying "why does that airline pilot only works 6 days a month and earn $350k?"
true, but not many doctors earn less than $150,000 year either.. They actually earn an average or 2 x what the average pilot earns from all I've seen.
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Old 02-26-2007, 09:45 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by CE750 View Post
true, but not many doctors earn less than $150,000 year either.. They actually earn an average or 2 x what the average pilot earns from all I've seen.

True, than subract their malpractice insurace premiums. I know, they still do better. But they give alot of income.
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Old 02-26-2007, 11:12 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by dojetdriver View Post
True, than subract their malpractice insurace premiums. I know, they still do better. But they give alot of income.
well, I may be wrong, but I think most of this earnings data factors in their costs.. I have a personal friend who is a family practice doctor with his own office and a PA working with him that "nets" $195,000/yr..
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