NEDude

Had this conversation the other day with another pilot. Basically at his airline the rule is that as long as your presence is required on the airplane, you can log all the time. If the crew is augmented, the commander P1 time for the entire flight. The other pilots can either log P2 time, or if they are acting as the PF, they can log P1US (P1 Under Supervision) for the time they are acting as PF. But they can log the entire flight in some fashion as long as their presence on the aircraft as an available flight deck crew member is required by the operation.

gringo

Just make sure you log only the time you're actually hand flying the airplane, and not the autopilot.

Also, keep a stopwatch to keep accurate track of your instrument time as you enter clouds.

And when you go to the lav to relieve yourself, obviously that time doesn't go in the logbook, but you already knew that.

Sniper66

There is only One Captain and that's the one that his/her name is on the dispatch release .....if that's you then PIC is yours for the whole flight

If not

Logging PIC as an IRO is illegal ...Don't get caught in the interview having such a PIC time. The interview will be over in a minute
Other than that the whole flight is loggable

WindWalker999

Regarding the US logbook, under Part 117 all crew log the entire flight. The ALPA Part 117 document clarifies the rule nicely. Basically if the flight duty period requires 4 pilots, they are required for the entire thing and log the whole thing. You can argue the whole "sole manipulator" part 61 PIC thing all day long but in the end yes, the only time that should ever be in your logbook as PIC is the time your signature was on the flight plan. If you are IRO or relief captain, the "real" captain is still in command thru the instructions he left you when he went to sleep, which at his discretion may include "anything critical and unforeseen, wake me up" for that exact reason. If you are anyone but the person who signs the release, log SIC.

Bottom line some companies may have different slants on this, but the next one you interview with may not agree. They are the next people who will actually look at your logbook, and are the people you are essentially writing it for.

Regarding logging flights with a non-US carrier in a US logbook, those flights by strictest definition do not fall under Part 117 but the equivalent of the airline's base country. You could then say "why not revert to logging the flight under part 61, which also allows you to log the entirety?" and my question back to you is "are your ATPL and type rating for the aircraft (777 etc) on your US certificate"? If the answer is "no", then by definition you are not qualified to FLY the flight under Part 61, and therefore are not qualified to LOG the flight under part 61 either! In that case the safest bet is to log in your US book exactly the same way as you would in the appropriate foreign one, reflecting the rules you are actually qualified and operating under.

YMMV, but have spent time on interview boards and can tell you these are a few things I would be looking for. Just don't log anything you can't legally log under whatever regs you are certified under and using, and don't log PIC when you didn't sign for the airplane. You may short a little time but you will NEVER be questioned. If you want to show the full duration of your flight time, bring company flight records to augment your logbooks.

TonyC

My question is, what did you do for the 14th hour?


If you're the PIC of a 2-pilot crew on a 6.0 hour flight and you spend 6 minutes in the lav, do you subtract 0.1 from your total flight time?


Do you coordinate the change of PIC with the dispatcher? That must get cumbersome if you use a multiple rest schedule. 2 ON, 4 OFF, 4 ON, 4 OFF, 2 ON ... that would be 4 PIC changes for a 16-hour flight.






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Buford

When I am the operating captain on a four man crew I log the whole thing. When I am the augmenting captain I log only time spent in the seat. I just survived an interview at Delta and they had no problems with that.

Typhoonpilot

Yeah, finally!!!!


TP

Typhoonpilot

Pedantic Tony

Again, a logbook is a record of your aeronautical experience. When I am a captain up front with an F.O. and there is another captain 200+ feet behind me in the aft overhead rest compartment who is making the command decisions?

Similarly, when I am 200+ feet behind the flight deck sound asleep who is making the command decisions?

If any company has a problem with how I log my aeronautical experience with that logic then I really don't want to work for them. I under log my true PIC time and flight time by the definitions used in any regulation or by any company, however it is a very accurate record of my aeronautical experience


Typhoonpilot

TonyC

Thank you, I think. There probably isn't an area of Title 14 CFR where pedantic is more applicable.

There also probably isn't an area of the same regulation where more confusion exists.

And why not? If "Time in the bunk is nothing and does not belong in the logbook in [one] example," how does it make sense to log time in the bunk as PIC in another example? And if you're not the same PIC as the name listed on the Flight Plan / Dispatch Release document -- the person who the dispatcher believes to be the PIC -- how can you log PIC, even when you're sitting in the left seat? If the name on the document doesn't matter, then why with a 1 Captain, 2 FO crew and the Captain in the bunk doesn't the FO in the left seat log PIC?

I think it's worth mentioning, also, the difference between Flight Time and PIC time. If you're only logging half of your long-haul flight as PIC, surely you're not counting only that time against weekly or monthly flight time limits.

It would be interesting to compare the logbook entries of 4 pilots on the same flight using different "rules" for logging time. In the Air Force, there was a form that was completed for each flight with all pilots listed and all the flight time broken down appropriately. If there was a 6.0 flight and 7 pilots on board (not uncommon for a training sortie), there could only be 6.0 of Instructor time spread among the pilots, only 6.0 of PIC time, only 6.0 of SIC time ... everything had to add up. In the case of you flying with a Captain of record who logs the entire flight as PIC, when you compare your 2 logbooks it would appear the PIC time was 150% of the flight time -- doesn't make much sense. Or, in the case of you acting as the Captain of record and a second Captain who logs no PIC, the combination of your 2 logbooks would make it appear there was no PIC for half of the flight. Shouldn't everybody be applying the same rules? Shouldn't the total PIC times and total Flight times work out to be the same?

Wouldn't it be nice if we could let common sense be our guide? Alas, ...




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AC560

The important distinction missing here is "used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part." and "required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part."

What you are required to record, what you can record, and what a potential employer would like to see recorded are three different things.

Logging PIC vs being PIC, hat or no hat, 250+ kts below 10k, single or double breasted. My favorite aviation topics and why I say 40% of all pilots are *******s, 40% are insane, and the other 20% laugh at the 80%.

Not directed at Typhoonpilot whose posts I always mostly enjoy.