mswmsw

This “logging time” scenario came up a bit ago, in a discussion amongst a bunch of CFI’s. I searched the forums for info on this, and did not find anything right on point; if it is there and I missed it, my apologies. Here’s the scenario:

An old pilot, Comm/Inst SEL, MEL, etc, with several thousand hours but out of currency for years and no current medical anymore, comes to a CFI and wants some dual. Basically, he wants to see how rusty he is, prior to going to get a new medical. He wants to do some VFR work and some IFR (hood) work. Obviously, the CFI is the PIC, because the Old Guy Pilot (no medical) cannot be. But the Old Guy Pilot says he is pretty sure he can handle the airplane and would like to do the takeoff and fly as much as he can, and as much as the CFI will allow. (The airplane is a Cessna 172.) The Old Guy Pilot carefully does the pre-flight and the start-up per the checklist. He does the taxi out, and the takeoff (with a slight crosswind), tracking the centerline on the roll perfectly, and the climb-out is fine. Radio work is slightly rusty, but no intervention required. He does some steep turns, stalls, some basic hood work, followed by a practice ILS, with the hood coming off at about 400AGL, and the CFI says go ahead and land it. Which he does…… again, slight crosswind, did a nice – well, really, it was pretty much perfect – landing. Two more times around the pattern, same result, nice landings. He does the taxi in, and then the shutdown by the checklist. The CFI NEVER touched the controls for the entire flight, and really did not do much more than tell the Old Guy Pilot what he wanted to see him do. In fact, altitude, heading and airspeed control was within ATP standards by about 10 minutes into the flight – and remained that way - even for most of the hood work. (Which matters not for the question pertaining to this scenario, but still, it was pretty impressive!) Anyway, at the end of the flight, the Old Guy Pilot asks if he can legally log the time as PIC (in addition to Dual Received) since he was the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated. And, of course, that is exactly what the reg says:


61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated……

So the discussion we had amongst ourselves centered around this: The CFI was the PIC, but can the Old Guy Pilot – no medical and not current – log the time as PIC since he was the sole manipulator of the controls? Some guys said yes, some said no. I was tending to the Yes, since the reg says nothing about being current as a requirement to log PIC time. But then I got to wondering if there was some sort of Official FAA ruling or opinion on this topic, because absent one of those Official FAA letters/opinions/rulings to the contrary on this point, it seems pretty clear - based just on a reading of 61.51(e)(1)(i) – that he should be able to log it as PIC time (in addition to dual) even though the CFI was the PIC.

This led into us into a discussion of a similar, but slightly different, scenario: The guy in the right seat is a Pilot Friend who is a rated and current pilot, but not a CFI. His buddy – The Old Guy Pilot, who is not current and has no medical – flies the entire flight, as described above. The Pilot Friend has agreed to be – and is, in fact, the PIC - but since the Old Guy Pilot flies the entire flight as the sole manipulator of the controls, can he log the time as PIC time as per 61.51(e)(1)(i)? Hmmmmm…….


Would like to hear opinions on the legality of these “logging time” scenarios, particularly if anyone can cite an actual FAA Opinion, Letter, or Ruling that is on point with the facts as set forth here. Don’t need further discussion on “the airlines won’t like to see this kind of PIC time” or “he didn’t sign for the aircraft” etc……..he’s an Old Guy, never going to be an airline pilot! Don’t care about what an insurance company might say, or whether this is “smart” thing to do or not……… we were just wondering about the legality of logging PIC time in these scenarios.


Thanks for the help, and Happy New Year to everyone!

awax

No medical, see 61.23(a)(3)
No recent experience, see 61.57

The Old Guy received dual for the entire flight. Lots of people get tripped up on the sole manipulator phrase while not being qualified, current, or legal to exercise the privileges of a certificate.

Greg Bockelman

There are several Chief Counsel rulings on this matter. One only has to be rated for the aircraft in which he is flying to be able to log PIC. You do NOT have to be current. 61.51(e) is the bible on this.

As for the first scenario, the old guy is the sole manipulator of the controls for which he is rated so he is legally entitled to log the flight as PIC. The flight is legal because the CFI is onboard and is qualified to act as the legal PIC. In this case, the old guy can log PIC as Sole Manipulator and the CFI can log PIC due to the fact that he is providing dual instruction.

The second scenario is almost, but not quite the same. The old guy can log PIC as Sole Manipulator, but the non CFI pilot cannot log anything because it does not fit into any of the categories of 61.51. He is there to make the flight legal because he is the only one that can be the PIC, but legally he cannot log it.

Doesn't seem fair, but that is how the reg is worded.

EMAW

Careful with the second one. With no Flight Review and the pilot-buddy not being an appropriately-rated Instructor, the old guy can't log it at all. If he's logging it, and the actual current pilot is not, who's signing for the aircraft? If the current pilot's name appears nowhere, he becomes a passenger which is a no-no.

Greg Bockelman

Sure he can. 61.51(e) says he can.

You don't have to log it to be the legal PIC.

Except that is not true. You can be the legal PIC and not be able to log it.

Besides, where is his name supposed to appear? Signing for the plane? That doesn't affect who logs the time.

PIC on a flight plan? Again that does not affect who can log the time.

There are at least a couple of Chief Counsel rulings on this.

61.51(e) is the sole source of information on the logging of flight time.

awax

I'll continue to disagree, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot, which is the case here.

JohnBurke

Irrelevant.

The pilot was rated in the airplane, and sole manipulator. He may log the time as pilot in command.

Logging time as pilot in command is not the same as acting as pilot in command; two entirely different things.

One does not need a current medical, nor does one need recency of experience, to log the time as pilot in command.

One does need a current medical and the appropriate recency of experience to act as pilot in command.

Again, you are incorrect. The FAA Chief Legal Counsel has addressed this on numerous occasions and issued multiple letters of interpretation making quite clear that both pilots may log pilot in command time when one is rated and sole manipulator, and the other acts as pilot in command of an aircraft requiring more than one crew member.

A pilot acting as PIC while serving as safety pilot in a Cessna 172 may log PIC for the time that the rated sole manipulator of the controls is wearing a view limiting device. During that period, the sole manipulator requires a safety pilot, and the safety pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft requiring more than one crew member under the regulation; both may log PIC.

Absolutely incorrect.

Two pilots: one is out of date, no recency of experience, no medical, but never the less, rated in the aircraft (category and class, and if appropriate, a type rating). He may log pilot in command time for that period in which he acts as sole manipulator of the controls. He may not act as pilot in command, but then logging time as PIC and acting as PIC are entirely different things.

The other pilot, regardless of status as an instructor, acts as pilot in command. He is responsible for the safety of the flight. There is no legal requirement that he "sign" for the aircraft, but he does bear significant legal responsibility as the ultimate authority regarding the safe outcome and operation of the flight.

There is no requirement that the pilot in command's name appear anywhere, in order to be PIC, and failure to "sign" for the aircraft doesn't make him a passenger. One need not log it at all, and in the case you address, say a VFR flight in a single pilot airplane in which someone else is sole manipulator, the acting pilot in command is in a position in which he isn't qualified to log the time as PIC, while the other pilot (despite lack of currency and medical certificate), can log the time as PIC.

Greg Bockelman

I agree that two people cannot log PIC at the same time in this scenario when there is not a CFI involved. Only the sole manipulator can log it. The actual PIC can NOT log it because it does not fit into the categories that 61.51(e) allows.

Like it or not, that is the way the regs are written.

puddlejumper

Along the same lines, can a 121 SIC log PIC when he is flying a leg in an aircraft that he is type rated in? I think according to 61.51 and this discussion, that would be ok. Discuss...

Greg Bockelman

Legally you could. I personally chose not too. No real reason for me to do so.