keenster

As a general rule more NWA pilots commute to DTW than any other base. Most MSP guys live there so probably not many of them will leave- their brains are frozen and they actually think that quality of life in MSP is really good. ANC guys most of them live there and love it. Seattle guys Most of them live there and love it. I would say the only shift would be the Florida commuters maybe bidding into ATL. Other base changes would probably be minimal.

johnso29

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! My statement wasn't an attack, it was merely a question. And it was the DAL MEC that walked away from the table because they didn't like the last SLI proposal. And no, I don't think there should be 2000-3000 DAL newhires below me, and neither does the NWA MEC. DO NOT try to blame the break down in talks on the NWA guys, DAL guys are just as guilty. When two sides can't come to an agreement, then they have BOTH failed. I don't know why you think you'd get bent over with the NWA proposed SLI, and I certainly don't know where you got 2000-3000 DAL below NWA newhires.

You said you wanted arbitration, which DALPA is against, but has agreed with since it's in the ALPA merger policy. I simply asked if you disagreed with your MEC. I think your attack was a little unecessary.

Jay5150

There was really no way to do this as I would need the all the widebody stats for NWA as well, because if I were to add the 1240 NW guys, then I would need to add all the NW flying options, not just DAL's.

Get my meaning? If you were to use a number of 2968, then you'd have to look at 330 & 747 (and all your 757's as that pay should come up to 767 under a joint contract) and all of DAL's heavy pay flying.

Jay5150

LOL. That's really funny because I was thinking the exact same thing as I was typing.

Jay5150

I partly agree in that I think the redtails move into ATL is going to be BIG. I also seem to remember reading that you guys had a good amount of LAX types?

Jay5150

Funny, I heard the same thing but exactly the opposite. I also heard that NW wanted to fence off their widebodies, but that DALs were fair game. And I sat in the crew lounge and had a rep tell me that one of the NW positions had the bottom 2000 of our guys stapled.

Look, this "I heard this or that" is going to get us nowhere. The table positions of both sides from SLI #1 are not in print, they won't be in print, and the only people who know what they actually were are those that were in the room. And they agreed that they can't be used as ammunition in future negotiations/arbitrations, so they are done, moot, irrelevant.

We've lost a load of money already by not getting this thing done in the first place, and I think it's largely because of egos. Who cares if you lose some numbers if after the smoke clears, the big picture has you just as good or better off than when you started? And at a massive carrier to boot. And I'm not talkin' just DAL & NWA.

With the new joint venture between DAL and Air France, your basically going to have one MONSTER airline of Air France, Delta and KLM. Oh yeah, Air France is also knockin' on the buyout door of a little Italian outfit called Alitalia.

But really, my prediction now:

We're going to end up down the same old road of:
-NW comes out of extreme left feild
-DAL comes out of extreme right
-fight to the near death, and
-go to arbitration

Then we'll get to see whose ideas of "premium widebody" or "firm orders" or "options" or "my retirements" or "your retirements" or "age 65/60" or whatever you want to pile on there, the arbitrator agrees with.

Then we'll either hate each other, or move on and deal with it, or start ousting unions, or sue each other.......blah, blah, blah....

I'm growing tired of the whole thing already

sailingfun

NWA has finally put the Delta opener out in print to their pilots. It was the straight ratio mentioned on here many times and that several NWA pilots stated was not the DALPA opener. I would still like to see NWA's opener. Its the key to understanding why the process failed. Several Delta reps have stated that the the NWA opener did in fact take the first 1000 spots, a limited number of Delta pilots in the next 1000 spots and then a 1 to 1 ratio after that leaving almost 2000 Delta pilots at the bottom. It would be nice to see in print from NWA what the truth actually is. I don't believe that would have been their opener but the refusal to put it out makes one wonder.

NWA320pilot

After working for NWA for 13+ years I am sick and tired of the Red/Green/Blue issues. The bottom line is we are ALL going to be Delta pilots and my hope isn't that we have "old NWA and old DAL". Everyone has an idea of what is fair and what is not. I do believe that there needs to be a meeting in the middle for all of us or life will suck.

Trust me when I say the division can hurt everyone. The Red/Green issue had the two groups battling all the time and being assessed fees for legal fights against each other. The resentment in the cockpit because a green guy was pulling gear for someone 1000+ numbers junior to him was terrible. The blue guys got to sit around and watch NWA ALPA focus too much time trying to ease this situation instead of working for some unity. Even to this day you can see a persons employee number and determine if he is red, green, or blue. This also determines the conversations within the cockpit so things don't get too heated.

We as pilots need to speak to our respective reps and tell them how you feel and what you think is fair. Both sides need to be realistic about what they each bring to the table as far as growth, planes, pilots, and career expectations. From what I am hearing I believe both sides are overly optimistic on what they bring to the table and think the other side doesn't have near as much to offer the combined entity as they do.

I for one am looking forward to flying with all the Delta pilots. As for NWA guys running to ATL and LAX, I don't think there is too much to worry about. Unless there is an opening nobody can be bumped. I will admit that some FL commuters may try ATL to shorten the distance, but my bet is guys will go where the schedules do them the most good. For me having QOL is more important than the actual base I fly out of.

Just my $.02 worth.......

Spaceman Spliff

[quote=johnso29;376234
You said you wanted arbitration, which DALPA is against, but has agreed with since it's in the ALPA merger policy. I simply asked if you disagreed with your MEC. I think your attack was a little unecessary.[/quote]

Ok...I don't disagree with their desire to avoid arbitration...but if avoiding arbitration means getting thrown under the bus below every single NWA pilot, I'd prefer to roll the dice and see what comes up with an arbitrator.

Wasatch Phantom

NWA320pilot,

That was well said. I've flown with ex-Northeast guys, ex-Western guys, and ex-Pan Am guys, some of which were former National pilots. It gets old fast when you hear the "Wah, wah, wah, I got screwed..." mantra time and time again.

With regard to the "firm order" vs "option" debate:

Shortly after 9/11 I heard Fred Reid (Delta's then COO) speak in SLC. Now, I put Fred Reid in the same category as George W. Bush, a complete buffoon. But anyway, he said: "Delta was "contractually obligated to take delivery of every aircraft we had on order with Boeing for the next 18 months. We were getting a new aircraft at the rate of about one a week, so that was approximately 100 new aircraft."

So how many of those 100 new aircraft did we actually get? I don't know the exact number. But it was a heck of a lot less than 100. For a couple of years Delta was taking big write-offs for not taking new aircraft that they had on order. IIRC, in 2005 Delta took a $28 Million charge to not accept seven or eight new 737-800's.

Someone posted that Delta had orders for 21 more 767-400's. I was under the impression that Boeing had shut down the 767 production line. Would Boeing restart that line to produce those aircraft? My gut is they'd try to move Delta into some 777's instead.

With the 787 order book so far, out the NWA 787 orders have probably have significant cash value. That is, NWA or DAL could sell those positions (or aircraft) to other carriers, and make some money doing it.