Why DAL's proposed ratio is inequitable
04-30-2008, 06:09 AM
#251
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: west coast wannabe
Posts: 815
Originally Posted by NWA320pilot
Trust me when I say the division can hurt everyone. The Red/Green issue had the two groups battling all the time and being assessed fees for legal fights against each other. The resentment in the cockpit because a green guy was pulling gear for someone 1000+ numbers junior to him was terrible.
If and when we merge, I would hate to add one more book to the whole issue, because that's one of the best attribute of Delta, working together to get things done.
Looking forward to pulling gear for ya
04-30-2008, 06:14 AM
#252
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: west coast wannabe
Posts: 815
Originally Posted by johnso29
You said you wanted arbitration, which DALPA is against, but has agreed with since it's in the ALPA merger policy. I simply asked if you disagreed with your MEC. I think your attack was a little unecessary.
With that said, are we (DAL) just gonna sit on our hands and wait for that day? No! We'll make darn sure that we'll have our best case presented to the aribitrator if it does go that far. Again, our union is just taking a pro-active stance (throughout this whole merger process) in case SLI cannot be solved after we'll get a joint contract.
04-30-2008, 06:17 AM
#253
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
[quote=Invisible Man;375879]
Well, my guess is he is a widebody FO for quality of life. So he can already hold norrowbody captain. And when retirements happen, widebody captain at NWA. At the NeW DeltA he may be able to hold widebody captain now. But there will be a lot of younger guys ahead of him that will still be there when he retires. So his quality of life will take a hit. Just because he has more A/C choices doesn't make it a windfall if his goal is quality of life.
Keep in mind that with the 777 and 787 orders, the combined company will need captains for those. Plus, with our work rules, all heavy crews need 2 captains and 2 FOs, not 1 CA and 3 FOs, so there will be a whole lot of captain upgrades required at the combined carrier.
Most of the arguments I read on the forums against this merger are based on a fear of the unknown and a desire to not make any changes. Our careers have changed so much over the years through no action on our part, why would we want to now participate in any changes? The issue of mergers really rises above the need for consolidation in the US though. Open Skies is coming, and if we (meaning all US pilots,) want to be able to hold our own against AF/KLM and Lufthansa, we better be as big and strong as them, or we will be the beotches.
Originally Posted by tsquare
Well, my guess is he is a widebody FO for quality of life. So he can already hold norrowbody captain. And when retirements happen, widebody captain at NWA. At the NeW DeltA he may be able to hold widebody captain now. But there will be a lot of younger guys ahead of him that will still be there when he retires. So his quality of life will take a hit. Just because he has more A/C choices doesn't make it a windfall if his goal is quality of life.
Most of the arguments I read on the forums against this merger are based on a fear of the unknown and a desire to not make any changes. Our careers have changed so much over the years through no action on our part, why would we want to now participate in any changes? The issue of mergers really rises above the need for consolidation in the US though. Open Skies is coming, and if we (meaning all US pilots,) want to be able to hold our own against AF/KLM and Lufthansa, we better be as big and strong as them, or we will be the beotches.
04-30-2008, 06:20 AM
#254
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spliff
Ok...I don't disagree with their desire to avoid arbitration...but if avoiding arbitration means getting thrown under the bus below every single NWA pilot, I'd prefer to roll the dice and see what comes up with an arbitrator.
I think the only thing that sucks about this merger is the SLI, and we have to rely on a few guys to negotiate something that could effect us for the rest of our careers. It sucks! I too, think arbitration is the only fair way to do it. I may not think the results are fair, but I can't see another way of doing it. I think there is just too much imbalance with the senior guys left at NWA, and the higher amount of new hires at DAL then NWA. I just wish it would get done so we could all move on. But since NWA guys should be coming up to DAL or better rates I can afford to buy some rounds.
Good Luck to us all.
04-30-2008, 06:23 AM
#255
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
Keep in mind that with the 777 and 787 orders, the combined company will need captains for those. Plus, with our work rules, all heavy crews need 2 captains and 2 FOs, not 1 CA and 3 FOs, so there will be a whole lot of captain upgrades required at the combined carrier.
Most of the arguments I read on the forums against this merger are based on a fear of the unknown and a desire to not make any changes. Our careers have changed so much over the years through no action on our part, why would we want to now participate in any changes? The issue of mergers really rises above the need for consolidation in the US though. Open Skies is coming, and if we (meaning all US pilots,) want to be able to hold our own against AF/KLM and Lufthansa, we better be as big and strong as them, or we will be the beotches.
Most of the arguments I read on the forums against this merger are based on a fear of the unknown and a desire to not make any changes. Our careers have changed so much over the years through no action on our part, why would we want to now participate in any changes? The issue of mergers really rises above the need for consolidation in the US though. Open Skies is coming, and if we (meaning all US pilots,) want to be able to hold our own against AF/KLM and Lufthansa, we better be as big and strong as them, or we will be the beotches.
Absolutely Justdoinmyjob, I agree with you 100%. Open Skies scares me in a way that this merger doesn't even come close to. I feel we'd be better off as ONE UNIFIED pilot group.
12,000 STRONG fellas, I'm with ya all the way!
04-30-2008, 10:30 AM
#256
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
I agree 100% and have been saying that for awhile. We need to get this SLI behind us and become unified for the real battle. I equate us to the Marines and the Navy. Let's say NWA = Marines and DAL = Navy. They both have rich, proud histories with very territorial groups. They take pride in the battles fought and won over the years, what the groups have collectively put together and as a result each feels they are the best. The Navy has the nicest ships, the longest history. The Marines are known for having fought some of the hardest, bloodiest battles in history and prevailed. They thank the Navy for giving them a ride to the battle. When it comes to funding, they both will fight like hell to get the most for their respective sides. They want money to hire and train more soldiers, get bigger, newer ships, etc.
Each side respects the other, but at the bar every night, they will each debate why one is superior to the other. The Marines will say the Navy is run by a bunch of sissy sailors who like their uniforms and being out to sea, the Navy will say the Marines are really Navy boys who weren't smart enough to make it to the Navy. And so it will go.
But attack the U.S. and the Marines and Navy guys are all on one page and collectively will unleash the the largest arsenal against any foe the world has ever known. They will fight side by side, brother with brother to defeat the enemy. They do this because they fight for the country. I equate ourselves the same. Each group feels superiority to the other with their histories, size of the boats, battles won, etc. But in the end we're all on the same side and the battle we will fight together is the Open Skies agreements and cabotage. This will make any SLI issue a moot point.
I was at the Delta museum earlier today, for the NWA guys it has several historical airplanes in a hangar including a DC-3 and The Spirit of Delta 767. DAL takes a lot of pride in our history as no doubt does the NWA group. Perhaps we could petition DAL to save a DC-9 when they are phased out and have it restored to the original NWA paint scheme like the 767? That way it would give recognition to the NWA legacy complete with a historical review of NWA in the cabin of the airplane.
Each side respects the other, but at the bar every night, they will each debate why one is superior to the other. The Marines will say the Navy is run by a bunch of sissy sailors who like their uniforms and being out to sea, the Navy will say the Marines are really Navy boys who weren't smart enough to make it to the Navy. And so it will go.
But attack the U.S. and the Marines and Navy guys are all on one page and collectively will unleash the the largest arsenal against any foe the world has ever known. They will fight side by side, brother with brother to defeat the enemy. They do this because they fight for the country. I equate ourselves the same. Each group feels superiority to the other with their histories, size of the boats, battles won, etc. But in the end we're all on the same side and the battle we will fight together is the Open Skies agreements and cabotage. This will make any SLI issue a moot point.
I was at the Delta museum earlier today, for the NWA guys it has several historical airplanes in a hangar including a DC-3 and The Spirit of Delta 767. DAL takes a lot of pride in our history as no doubt does the NWA group. Perhaps we could petition DAL to save a DC-9 when they are phased out and have it restored to the original NWA paint scheme like the 767? That way it would give recognition to the NWA legacy complete with a historical review of NWA in the cabin of the airplane.
04-30-2008, 12:24 PM
#257
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by NWA320pilot
After working for NWA for 13+ years I am sick and tired of the Red/Green/Blue issues. The bottom line is we are ALL going to be Delta pilots and my hope isn't that we have "old NWA and old DAL". Everyone has an idea of what is fair and what is not. I do believe that there needs to be a meeting in the middle for all of us or life will suck.
Trust me when I say the division can hurt everyone. The Red/Green issue had the two groups battling all the time and being assessed fees for legal fights against each other. The resentment in the cockpit because a green guy was pulling gear for someone 1000+ numbers junior to him was terrible. The blue guys got to sit around and watch NWA ALPA focus too much time trying to ease this situation instead of working for some unity. Even to this day you can see a persons employee number and determine if he is red, green, or blue. This also determines the conversations within the cockpit so things don't get too heated.
We as pilots need to speak to our respective reps and tell them how you feel and what you think is fair. Both sides need to be realistic about what they each bring to the table as far as growth, planes, pilots, and career expectations. From what I am hearing I believe both sides are overly optimistic on what they bring to the table and think the other side doesn't have near as much to offer the combined entity as they do.
I for one am looking forward to flying with all the Delta pilots. As for NWA guys running to ATL and LAX, I don't think there is too much to worry about. Unless there is an opening nobody can be bumped. I will admit that some FL commuters may try ATL to shorten the distance, but my bet is guys will go where the schedules do them the most good. For me having QOL is more important than the actual base I fly out of.
Just my $.02 worth.......
Trust me when I say the division can hurt everyone. The Red/Green issue had the two groups battling all the time and being assessed fees for legal fights against each other. The resentment in the cockpit because a green guy was pulling gear for someone 1000+ numbers junior to him was terrible. The blue guys got to sit around and watch NWA ALPA focus too much time trying to ease this situation instead of working for some unity. Even to this day you can see a persons employee number and determine if he is red, green, or blue. This also determines the conversations within the cockpit so things don't get too heated.
We as pilots need to speak to our respective reps and tell them how you feel and what you think is fair. Both sides need to be realistic about what they each bring to the table as far as growth, planes, pilots, and career expectations. From what I am hearing I believe both sides are overly optimistic on what they bring to the table and think the other side doesn't have near as much to offer the combined entity as they do.
I for one am looking forward to flying with all the Delta pilots. As for NWA guys running to ATL and LAX, I don't think there is too much to worry about. Unless there is an opening nobody can be bumped. I will admit that some FL commuters may try ATL to shorten the distance, but my bet is guys will go where the schedules do them the most good. For me having QOL is more important than the actual base I fly out of.
Just my $.02 worth.......
Steve
04-30-2008, 12:42 PM
#259
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
One thing I have noticed is that the friction is less between us. We're cracking jokes, being respectful, hell we're even buying beer for each other. I haven't signed off will the "cool face" in weeks.
I think we are all relieved that we will not have anything to do with a UAL/US Air merger. Feels good. Ya think?
New K Now
I think we are all relieved that we will not have anything to do with a UAL/US Air merger. Feels good. Ya think?
New K Now
04-30-2008, 01:02 PM
#260
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Civility is a good thing.
Let's find a way to translate it into money out of Steenland's/RA's/hedge fund a-holes' pockets--and into ours. Now THAT is something to drink to.
those guys could get fired tomorrow, and still live like kings for the rest of their lives...yet they squeeze us for every penny.
there is a deep, dark corner of hell (with numerous spiked anal penetrating devices) reserved for guys that greedy. If we can work together, we can give them a taste of what's to come.
and for goodness sake, let's not be afraid to walk if/when the time comes--especially us DAL guys, who don't have the best track record there. it's impossible to reason with pure greed by being cooperative and concilatory...we'll only be taken advantage of (again).
But first...let's come together on SLI so we can work on getting some GD pay raises (NOT the insulting cost-of-living increases currently on table).
Let's find a way to translate it into money out of Steenland's/RA's/hedge fund a-holes' pockets--and into ours. Now THAT is something to drink to.
those guys could get fired tomorrow, and still live like kings for the rest of their lives...yet they squeeze us for every penny.
there is a deep, dark corner of hell (with numerous spiked anal penetrating devices) reserved for guys that greedy. If we can work together, we can give them a taste of what's to come.
and for goodness sake, let's not be afraid to walk if/when the time comes--especially us DAL guys, who don't have the best track record there. it's impossible to reason with pure greed by being cooperative and concilatory...we'll only be taken advantage of (again).
But first...let's come together on SLI so we can work on getting some GD pay raises (NOT the insulting cost-of-living increases currently on table).
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 04-30-2008 at 01:15 PM.
