Tomcat

What about the fact that LOA19 will be the "basis" for our joint contract. Do guys think we are going to work under two contracts? Same payscale, same work rules, same company....... It would have been nice if we could have completed the SLI along with the previous joint contract, but I beleive in time all of this will be worked out. I think what I see as a 5% pay raise in January will be a very nice pay raise for the NWA guys. Considering the current economic climate, it's better than nothing.

I look forward to flying with the NWA guys.....

Tomcat,
LAX 767B

Carl Spackler

Posts like your's are really irritating to us "senior" guys. How would you define "looking out for you?" Would you define it as - taking the new defined contribution pension money from the top half of the list and distributing it to the bottom half of the list to try to even out the pension plans? Or maybe paying COBRA benefits to our furloughed pilots for 5+ years?

I know you are probably young, but you need to wise up. NWALPA has been a model (as has DALPA) in looking out for their more junior pilots. When you don't see that, and then whine that nobody's looking out for you, it is both ignorant and ungrateful. I'm still glad we're doing it because I think most junior NWA pilots understand what has been done and is continuing to be done.

Carl

tsquare

Thank you Carl, for including DALPA in a complimentary post

tsquare

Eric.. this is the last electron I will waste on you, because I don't believe that you are a pilot, much less one that works for either company. I think your sole purpose is to try to stir the pot a little... but really dude... why don't you find a forum where you have a modicum of a clue as to the subject... Or just go outside and go skateboarding, or whatever you do in your spare time.

DAL4EVER

I'm still waiting patiently for Eric to post the prom pics from last week on here. Come on Eric, it shouldn't take this long.

keenster

THis is What DELTA alpa ia capable of and we are supposed to think that we are going to get a fair SLI and Deal.


Gentlemen:

Great Web Site!

I share your frustration.

After reading what you are attempting to do, I thought you might like to hear a little history of the most recent acquisition and seniority list integration.

I am one of the Pan Am pilots who was "acquired" (Delta term) in 1991. I write this email to you as a warning about what can happen in your quest for a combined list. Do not trust Delta. Do not trust ALPA. We call one another brothers at ALPA until it is a choice between you or a mainline Delta pilot...then there is no choice. You will be sold out by ALPA or used by ALPA for the benefit of the Delta mainline pilots. I speak from experience.

In 1991 we (Pan Am) pilots were told by Delta management (Sr VP Flt Opns Captain Harry Alger and Captain Dave Greenberg) that we would be integrated into the seniority list in a "fair and equitable manner". This was Delta's terminology. Alger and Greenberg asked Captain Sheldon, Delta ALPA MEC Chairman to put together a merged seniority list. A committee was formed to investigate the two pilot groups and form a proposed seniority list. At this point I should point out that just one month before this exercise began, when the PanAm acquisition was a done deal, the ALPA executive committee voted to remove language in ALPA's merger policy stating mergers should be accomplished in date of hire! Captain Sheldon was a member of this committee. [N2264J note: The Delta MEC had a member who sat on the Board of Directors and would know months in advance if Delta were planning an acquisition then maneuver to change ALPA merger policy before hand. That happened again at the ALPA BOD in 1998, just a four months before Delta announced the purchased ASA.] The merger committee did it's job and formed a proposed seniority list. The list ratio'd Pan Am pilots into the Delta seniority list which resulted in a loss of seniority of approximately 10 years in the worst case. This seniority list was to be presented to Delta Flight Ops management at the next MEC meeting.

The next MEC meeting was attended by Dave Greenberg and Harry Alger. The proposed seniority list was presented to Alger/Greenberg who did not even look at it. Instead, they threw on the table what they termed the "company list". When the MEC looked at this list Alger/Greenberg presented, they were amazed. The worse case loss of seniority to a Pan Am pilot was over 23 years! Immediately, they recognized Delta wanted this list and would negotiate to get it. When asked what Delta ALPA would get should it accepted this list, Alger/Greenberg responded by offering agency shop agreement and a 2% pay increase. Sheldon and his MEC bought it! It is interesting to note that Delta Flight Ops management stated in prior years that there would never be an agency shop agreement at Delta. Many Western pilots dropped out of ALPA after their merger with Delta because of the seniority list integration. The Delta MEC had to assume the Pan Am pilots would also be upset with the integration. The combination of the two groups and the other non-members represented millions of dollars. The Delta offer solved a major economic and control problem of the Delta MEC. Thus, the Pan Am pilots were sold out for a 2% pay increase and agency shop by our "brothers in ALPA". So much for brotherhood between two ALPA represented major airlines.

The Delta "company list" started integrating the Pan Am pilots into the combined list at approximately the senior man on the 767. Their rational was that we were bringing over aircraft that were similar to the 767 so this is where we should start appearing on the list. If one accepts this rational for integration, then it would also be fair to come up from the bottom to the most junior man on the 727 and integrate all Pan Am airmen into the list between the most senior 767 airman and the most junior 727 airman, since we did not bring any airplane over smaller than a 727 - (Delta had DC-9's). Not so. A ratio was established at 1:11 starting at the 767 senior captain until reaching to co-pilots where it reverted to 1:13 until all airman were inserted into the list. But guess what? Delta ran out of Delta pilots. So what Delta flight operations management did is insert 13 X's into the list after the last Delta pilot then a Pan Am pilot, another 13 X's - a Pan Am pilot until finally all Pan Am pilots were accounted for as follows:
Last Delta Pilot
Pan Am Pilot

sailingfun

I won't go into your whole post but there are a few items that should be cleared up. First ALPA merger policy never stated mergers should be accomplished by DOH. It was one of half a dozen factors that could be used and considered in constructing a list. It was removed as one of those factors in 1991. UAL was the driving force behind that change.
The second point about Pan Am is that Delta bought only a portion of the airline. In the portion they purchased they applied the Delta contract and work rules in deciding how many pilots to bring over. This resulted in almost 200 additional slots for Pan Am. Since they were buying only a portion of Pan Am it resulted in a most of the senior people from Pan Am coming over leaving the junior people at the old Pan Am. Hard to use DOH when you take the top half of the list for the most part. No Pan Am pilot had to come over to Delta. They could have stayed at Pan Am. They knew the method of seniority integration before coming over. Those that came over saw there pay more then double in the next 3 years while every single aircraft that came over with them was removed from the Delta fleet in that time frame.
The other half of Pan Am was sold to American Airlines where they offered employment to exactly zero Pan Am pilots.

tsquare

Keenster... ASk that PAA pilot about the bloodbath over at PAA prior to the acquisition... Never hear about THAT do ya...? union brotherhood and all.

Wasatch Phantom

Carl,

As a Delta pilot I strongly beg to differ on "Dalpa's being a model looking out for the junior pilot".

As a result of Delta's Chapter 11 filing, ALPA was complicit with DAL management in giving up the defined benefit pension plan. Without going into great detail, pilots age 53 and over on the date of plan termination get a he** of a lot more from the PBGC than those under 53.

When ALPA came up with the methodology to distribute both the $2.1 B pre-petition claim, and the $550 M note the junior pilots got royally screwed in comparison to the senior pilots.

The history of ALPA at Delta (at least during my tenure) is one of ALPA protecting the senior pilots and selling out the junior ones.

sailingfun

Wasatch, You should put some numbers to your post. Keep in mind the note money was paid as a condition of the termination of the retirement plan. The money was scheduled to be paid in proportion to the loss each pilot had in the terminated retirment plan. When DALPA ran the numbers giving each pilot his fair share based on what they had in the plan the junior pilot got almost nothing from the note. That made sense since they had little in the retirement plan. Dalpa however decided to try and give them more of the pot and decided to plus every pilot up to a assummed 205,000 FAE regardless of what they really had and then reran the numbers. Still the junior pilots got very little so they added a years of service credit and ran the numbers again. That was the final method they used to distribute the money. The committee that decides how to distribute the money was composed of mostly junior pilots. None were in the top 2000. When all the numbers were run the junior pilots will end up with a higher retirement then the senior pilots based on the new 11% DC plan going forward. If there is any improvement in the DC plan then the junior pilots benefit even more.