cactusmike

The reason AOL went for the initial suit was that there is a 6 month statute of limitations for a DFR suit. The question we had was when does the clock start? The AOL lawyers said it started already. Others said to wait. We have an answer from the 9th that said we were premature, but we also have affirmation that any SLI will be subject to scrutiny from the court regarding the harm that may be done by USAPA against the West.

You don't know what you will get until you try it out. This may not have gone our way but we will continue on. We will wait to see how USAPA reacts to this and see if they are serious about getting a new contract. I think this is done for now. The ball is now in USAPA's hands.

alfaromeo

This is the most odd view from many of the former NWA pilots. They view the fight as the goal and not the end result. Integrity doesn't matter, results don't matter, the only thing that matters is that you lash out.

The East pilots openly agreed to arbitrate their seniority list if they could not come to mutual agreement, it's right there in their Transition Agreement. They had a full and fair arbitration with the arbitrator they demanded. The result comes out and then they say, well my word is no longer good anymore, I am going to fight. You find this admirable. I find it disgusting. They didn't get the seniority they wanted so now they are trying to steal it from their fellow pilots. If that is okay to you, then you have a warped sense of values in my book. You should not agree to arbitration if you refuse to live with the results.

What would your reaction be if the company unilaterally decided to cut pay by 30%? Would you admire their fight or would you call them thieving Bxxxxxxs? I mean you like the mentality that nothing is decided until everything is exhausted so the company stealing from us is just another acceptable tactic for them, right.

This litigation is not a wakeup call to anyone. Arbitrators rule on the fairness of the issues and not the result of pilots committing career suicide. I get that you are still smarting because your side got spanked in the arbitration, but if you look at the last five you can see that all of them went pretty much the same way. Maybe you need to learn a lesson or two. Date of hire doesn't work for pilots because that is not how we get paid. Look at the pay tables and tell me what they say about the importance of status and category and longevity and then come back and tell me how date of hire is the most important factor. Carl Spackler admits that the Red Book guys didn't believe in date of hire when they did the merger with Republic but now they believe in it because they would benefit it from it. Profiles in courage.

The problem you guys have is that you can't recognize fighting and getting results and fighting and losing. In the DAL pension termination, the total value of lost benefits for pilots was around $950 million. We received a claim that netted $1,300 million and a note that netted $650 million. The PBGC just sent out our final benefit statements that reflected the value of the stock they received from the bankruptcy. That value was so high that pilots received benefits back of around $400 million. So to summarize:

Loss : $950 million
Returns : $1,300 + 650 + 400 million

As we reached the end of bankruptcy, the Delta MEC had a deliberate strategy to try to maximize the value of the corporation and thus the value of the stock that the pilots and the PBGC owned. We cooperated with management to help push the company forward, rebuild the customer service and employee attitudes, and help them accomplish their business goals. The helped lead to the returns of $1,300 million + $400 million from our stock and the PBGC;s stock.

Other pilot groups decided they should spend their time trashing their management in public. They were angry and by god they were going to let it out. Great therapy I am sure, but the net value to their pilots was zero. If I have a choice of feel good lashing out and a bigger pay check, I take the bigger pay check all the time. If I need to feel good I will watch Dr. Phil, my union's job is to get me money and whatever tactic gets the most that is the right tactic.

In my eyes it is just incredible that you rail about ALPA's failures, and yet you cheer on the self destructive tactics of USAPA while their pay and benefits are the bottom of the barrel. In your view a union is doing its best when it is blindly lashing out at any target and they don't actually have to produce pay and benefits for their members. What a great standard.

I am sorry, but there is probably more of a culture shock coming for any North guys that think this way. Delta pilots want the money and they will not tolerate childish acting out in lieu of a paycheck. Don't expect a lot of support for self destructive behavior. We were the first labor group ever to fully organize a strike committee and treated the bankruptcy with the same tactics as a Section 6 including picketing and many other public events. That led to us getting the best bankruptcy contract and the best bankruptcy returns. When it was over we shifted gears and went into the mode that helped us continue to move forward and maximize our returns. Not afraid to fight, not afraid to cooperate, whatever brings home the bacon.

Carl Spackler

Your lack of comprehension is absolutely stunning. No NWA guy has EVER posted such a thing. Is this the kind lof ying that is required by you to make you feel good about yourself?

Never said that. You cannot point to a single post where I or any NWA guy has ever said that here. Why do you just flat out lie?

Carl

alfaromeo

You haven't said those exact words but you said you support USAPA despite the fact that they have renounced their word that they would abide by the arbitration results and that they remain stuck with the worst contract in the industry. What other conclusion can you draw?

Did the Red Book guys support Date of Hire in the Republic merger? Did they fight 24 arbitrations making sure the Republic guys could not exercise their system seniority as per their date of hire? Did they then reverse course 180 and demand date of hire for the Delta merger? Actions speak louder than words.

This doesn't "make me feel good about myself". Other pilots read these boards, not just the usual guys. I think it is useful to have another voice here rather than just the standard flame throwers. If you don't analyze the past and determine what is successful and what is not then it is easy to be swayed by the loudest voices promising riches and salvation if we just follow them. I come here to point out the failures of that mode of operation because I want more money, more time off, and more of everything. I don't really want to feel good about myself by lashing out against the wind. Sometimes you need vice grips and sometimes you need tweezers. Knowing the right tools to use and when they are successful is the key to getting more.

I reject newK's idea that that this internal fighting at US Air is somehow good and noble. You and NuGuy seem to support that theory also. It is career suicide for the East pilots and career homicide being done to the West. It leaves me saddened and disgusted at the same time. I want no part of that in my union, I want more money.

Carl Spackler

I support USAPA any group of US citizens exercising their rights under the constitution. How could anyone advocate anything else? Stunning.

You probably don't need me to tell you this, but I hope you USAPA guys see this guy for what he is. He throws out accusations of "what you said" and only slightly backs down when you tell him he can't back it up.

No. Date of Hire was Republic's position. Their position prevailed.

The arbitrator said that since giving Republic date of hire will result in huge imbalances and inequities, a 20 year fence will be required to ensure what he deemed as fairness. The 24 arbitrations were all about enforcing the fences - since it was impossible to arbitrate the date of hire seniority numbers.

No. Our proposal used a pretty complex formula of ratios and date of hire in some areas of the list.

In my opinion, you have no business throwing the baseless flames that you throw against another labor group. Especially since that group is doing nothing less than exercising their rights under the constitution.

I trust that both the West and the East guys understand that union hacks from another union may have a skewed view of reality.

Carl

alfaromeo

ARGUMENT

I. The Panel Should Combine the Lists by Date of Hire.

The Northwest Merger Representatives propose to combine the two lists before the Arbitration Board by date of hire


Carl, that is from your merger committee's pre-hearing statement in arbitration. Doesn't sound like a complex formula of ratios to me. Maybe I am wrong.

newKnow

Alfa,

It is funny that you should use the word “odd,” because I am finding some things to be rather strange myself.

First, let’s be clear here (once again). This is a discussion about the legal aspects and strategies of the East/West Merger. I find it odd that you decided to use this discussion as an opportunity to rehash the DAL/NWA seniority integration fight. Personally, I thought that was put to rest long ago.

Secondly, what’s even more peculiar is that in order to do it, you had to apply my views on the US Airways situation to the views of “many” of the 5,000 North pilots, many of whom have stated an opposite position than me on this very thread. If you want to go after my views on the East/West merger, do so. I am here for the taking, by myself. If you want to go after the “many” in the North Pilot group, find another torchbearer. I do not purport to represent their views, especially on this subject, because I have found that many don’t agree with me.

Third, even more perplexing is that you would do this, unprovoked and one post removed from admonishing the notion of North pilots “pointing the swords inward.” If anyone is pointing a sword inward, it's you.

Fourth, it’s also amazing that you had to distort what I wrote in order to find disgust at my “warped sense of values.” Where did I say that I found what the East guys were doing was admirable? I said what they were doing was legal. Where did I say that results don’t matter? I said that we should learn from what the winners do. Where did I cheer the self destructive tactics of the USAPA and their sub-standard contract? I merely said that “if that’s what they want[ed], that’s what they got."

Fifth, in a bewildering, final attempt to try to add insult to injury, you imply that my views must be attributed to the fact that I, “[am] still smarting because [my] side got spanked in the arbitration,” as if that’s the only reason I could possibly have the views that I have. Newsflash #1: I have the views that I have because I have the capacity to think outside of the box, for myself, and use this ability whenever I can. Newsflash #2: I’m a 1995 hire. Go look at our seniority list and see if I’m smarting because somehow I got spanked in the arbitration.

Sixth, what’s puzzling is that you want to act like I stole your bike because I decided to point out some of ALPA’s failures. Newsflash #3: In case you missed it, many pilots North and South alike, “rail about ALPA's failures” on the latest and greatest thread on the very issues I hi-lighted in this one. Or, do you put your head in your lap when you read a post from a south guy that bemoans our lack of scope protection (How did we let them get so many rj’s?). Or, do you, blink to the point where your eyes tear up, when a South guy posts the contract Delta pilots had in 2000 and proclaims that we have to get pre-concessionary pay-rates. (We have given too much. It’s time for us to get it back.). Or, does your screen saver mysteriously come on when a South guy posts that he wants more contributions into his pension fund for all the misery and uncertainty that has befallen him in the past 9 years (They owe us a lot more than they are giving us.). Finally do you have to run to the bathroom when a South guy speaks of how things would be much better if Age 65 hadn’t passed (We should have fought that.). The bottom line is that those aren’t “North Only” sentiments. These railings belong to everyone. Put your head in the sand if you want to.

Seventh, what’s really amazing is that you condemn the position of someone exhausting every angle before giving up. Equally as startling is that you don’t recognize or respect our legal system for what it is. Everyone is entitled to their day in court, not just the company you work for when they decide to go into bankruptcy to abrogate your contract and terminate your pension plan (so you can cooperate at a later date). But, every individual who thinks they suffered a harm has this right as well. I guess you missed the civics class that talked about our society being based on people being able to make choices. The judges and juries get to decide who wins and how long a case can be litigated, not you.

Finally, what’s really astounding is that you think anyone cares what you think is noble, or who you think has integrity, or what you find disgusting, or who you think has a warped sense of value. Those are all subjective words and phrases, that mean nothing in the court of law, or to wives, or children, or friends, or dogs, when you are 80 years old and have to get up at 6 am to go be a greeter in Wal-Mart because your pension was terminated, or you lost seniority in an arbitration award, or your union abrogated seniority that you were awarded in arbitration. If someone wants to fight, let them make their own decision on how to do so. If the courts allow it, it’s legal. If you don't like it, do something about it, or cooperate, or do whatever it is you do. Pertaining to the discussion at hand, that means the East can fight the arbitrated SLI, the West can fight the USAPA, and you can sit on the sidelines and continue to look for opportunities to rehash a SLI that has been over and done with long ago. I choose to have no part of that.

New K Now

Carl Spackler

Pre-hearing is the operative words here. As the negotiations progressed, our position moved to a rather complex formula of ratios - with date of hire in a few areas of the list.

Carl

newKnow

Nevermind.....

Globaldriver53

This airline will be gone long before that. What a mess, I cannot see these 2 groups ever working together, no winners here. BK will be the salvation, and in due time the wounds will heal...I hope!