Why I'm Voting No
07-01-2017, 05:54 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: ????
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by Inop2
You misunderstood my comment. Go to another regional with better pay, real medical insurance, etc.
Not that easy either. Flew with a CA that has been at Mesa for 10 years. He showed me his recent rejection letter from Envoy. He didn't interview. I wonder if Envoy is told not to hire other pilots that support their feed to AA?
I personally applied to Endevor. Haven't heard a peep.
07-01-2017, 06:11 AM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: ????
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by No Land 3
Theres a difference between having apps out, and a desire to go anywhere else. You had a response from Omni?, and you made a decision that it wasn't going to be a higher QOL for your situation. Fair enough.
I will suggest however that it is very hard at the regional level to actually know what's better. Regional pilots know a certain lifestyle that they grow comfortable with. When I was at Mesa, I swore I'd never do long haul. Now that I am doing it, I swear I'll never go back to domestic short haul. In fact, the thought of domestic overnights puts a bad taste in my mouth. I had to try it to have formed this opinion. I wanted Spirit, Frontier, Jet Blue, South West when I worked at Mesa. Now, that type of flying seems too close to regional flying, just something I want nothing to do with.
The good news is that any move will provide more for you than anything JO will ever offer.
I will suggest however that it is very hard at the regional level to actually know what's better. Regional pilots know a certain lifestyle that they grow comfortable with. When I was at Mesa, I swore I'd never do long haul. Now that I am doing it, I swear I'll never go back to domestic short haul. In fact, the thought of domestic overnights puts a bad taste in my mouth. I had to try it to have formed this opinion. I wanted Spirit, Frontier, Jet Blue, South West when I worked at Mesa. Now, that type of flying seems too close to regional flying, just something I want nothing to do with.
The good news is that any move will provide more for you than anything JO will ever offer.
I'm guessing by your comment that not just having your app out but going to job fairs also. I agree with you if that's what you're getting at. I plan on doing that. I talked to one of our FOs the other day who has been to 5 job fairs trying to get to Spirit. He has yet to receive a call. He is senior to me.
I think we (MESA) are at a real turning point with this TA. If it passes JO will have to bid flying inline with other regionals. His days of a never ending supply of cheap pilots is over. He (JO) just needs to face that fact. By his emails to us and the payscales for FOs in this new TA says he hasn't faced that fact yet. If we don't pass it either he will come back to the table and try to get an expedited vote on improvements or we will stand his ground and possibly lose the additional planes for United. We will never get an industry leading TA. This is a man who prides himself on the title "Worst CEO in America."
WE SHALL SEE!
07-01-2017, 06:18 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Position: DFW CRJ CA
Posts: 340
Originally Posted by 20sx
Also, by 13-n-12-b, does this mean getting done a reserve assignment a pilot can be put on ready reserve? I didn't think we could mix assignments like that.
07-01-2017, 06:20 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by squawkoff
For me, long haul wouldn't work unless it would be 7 on and then days off. I can't and don't want to be gone from family for two weeks, and some times four weeks at a time. QOL is more important to me than money. Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have the best of both and I'll gladly fight for it. The question I ask myself is how much is two years of seniority worth? I really don't want to start over at the bottom of another seniority list at another regional. Don't mind it with a vertical or even a diagonal move. No matter how you cut it, a regional is a regional. Some are just worse than others.
I'm guessing by your comment that not just having your app out but going to job fairs also. I agree with you if that's what you're getting at. I plan on doing that. I talked to one of our FOs the other day who has been to 5 job fairs trying to get to Spirit. He has yet to receive a call. He is senior to me.
I think we (MESA) are at a real turning point with this TA. If it passes JO will have to bid flying inline with other regionals. His days of a never ending supply of cheap pilots is over. He (JO) just needs to face that fact. By his emails to us and the payscales for FOs in this new TA says he hasn't faced that fact yet. If we don't pass it either he will come back to the table and try to get an expedited vote on improvements or we will stand his ground and possibly lose the additional planes for United. We will never get an industry leading TA. This is a man who prides himself on the title "Worst CEO in America."
WE SHALL SEE!
I'm guessing by your comment that not just having your app out but going to job fairs also. I agree with you if that's what you're getting at. I plan on doing that. I talked to one of our FOs the other day who has been to 5 job fairs trying to get to Spirit. He has yet to receive a call. He is senior to me.
I think we (MESA) are at a real turning point with this TA. If it passes JO will have to bid flying inline with other regionals. His days of a never ending supply of cheap pilots is over. He (JO) just needs to face that fact. By his emails to us and the payscales for FOs in this new TA says he hasn't faced that fact yet. If we don't pass it either he will come back to the table and try to get an expedited vote on improvements or we will stand his ground and possibly lose the additional planes for United. We will never get an industry leading TA. This is a man who prides himself on the title "Worst CEO in America."
WE SHALL SEE!
Two year's seniority seems a minor reason to hold you back.
Do the benefits of that seniority outweigh the benefits of a move, lateral or otherwise?
I was picked up instantly, interviewed on the spot and got a class date 3 weeks later. All it took was face time at a job fair. I've hired close to 100 employees and subcontractors in my business career. The ones who got instant credibility were those who took the time and expense to come see me. Some from Asia to the US. People take notice when you promote yourself in a respectful manner and in person.
What I considered in making a move, lateral or otherwise:
Was QOL going to be better (commute, work rules, corp culture)?
Would the new company be a place I could spend a lengthy time at?
Would it be a better stepping stone to bigger and better?
Was the pay better, immediately or within a year or so?
Was there good reliable insurance available?
Was there a reasonable labor contract in place?
Was the reputation of the company respectable?
I'm 51, so my time is limited. Even with limited time in the industry I found it much more advantageous to make a lateral move than to stay.
I wrote down all the pros and cons of making a move and the results were an eye-opener. Where I was at showed much less opportunity.
Was I more or less likely to get hired from where I was? Less.
Was the QOL going to be better? Much better.
How was the insurance? Best in the industry.
How was the contract, pay, and reputation? Good, Good, Very Good.
It was time to leave.
Don't be stuck anywhere that holds you back or where you are unhappy. Don't make any decision out of fear. Boldly do what is best for you and your family. Maybe staying is your best career move, maybe not.
Good Luck!
07-01-2017, 06:21 AM
#105
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,275
Originally Posted by squawkoff
Not that easy either. Flew with a CA that has been at Mesa for 10 years. He showed me his recent rejection letter from Envoy. He didn't interview. I wonder if Envoy is told not to hire other pilots that support their feed to AA?
I personally applied to Endevor. Haven't heard a peep.
I personally applied to Endevor. Haven't heard a peep.
ABX, ATI, K4, Southern, Atlas, allegiant, South West, are all hiring, but I agree, it's harder than people think. I was extremely lucky. Heck, in this industry, luck has everything to do with it.
07-01-2017, 06:34 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by squawkoff
Not that easy either. Flew with a CA that has been at Mesa for 10 years. He showed me his recent rejection letter from Envoy. He didn't interview. I wonder if Envoy is told not to hire other pilots that support their feed to AA?
I personally applied to Endevor. Haven't heard a peep.
I personally applied to Endevor. Haven't heard a peep.
07-01-2017, 06:53 AM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,530
If the voices in your head are telling you to make a lateral move you should listen. That's your soul telling you it can't take flying at Mesa anymore, if you deny it because you have 2 year or 10 year seniorty, you're just going to be miserable in the long run. Good luck.
07-01-2017, 07:03 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,530
Originally Posted by squawkoff
Not that easy either. Flew with a CA that has been at Mesa for 10 years. He showed me his recent rejection letter from Envoy. He didn't interview. I wonder if Envoy is told not to hire other pilots that support their feed to AA?
I personally applied to Endevor. Haven't heard a peep.
I personally applied to Endevor. Haven't heard a peep.
07-03-2017, 07:00 AM
#109
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by Xdashdriver
You asked:
I referenced what you asked for. Nothing vague about it. Like I said, there are SEVERAL other iterations of the question that may provide the clarity you're looking for. I didn't link to them all, but I believe Wykoff and Mullen asked them and they are in 2015 IIRC.
I think you're getting confused with terminology. A RAP is NOT part of your FDP. Once the FDP clock has started and then stopped, you cannot go into another FDP or RAP until you have 10 hours of rest. What the FAA is saying in the interpretations is that the company can keep your FDP clock running after your last leg if there is some intention of you flying more, even if they aren't yet aware of it. "We may have some more flying for you later" is acceptable to the FAA for keeping your FDP clock running to the Table B max. It's not a RAP because it's inside of the FDP. It becomes one continuous FDP. Once the company determines it is no longer going to use you and/or the FDP clock runs to its Table B max, you're released to rest.
Now, companies/unions can call this FDP-clock-continuation period whatever they want for compensation/work rule purposes. They may even call it reserve, like you want, but it doesn't change the legal status of that time...it's still FDP time, not a RAP per 117.
Right now, Mesa can keep you on FDP right up until Table B max and then ask you to extend on top of that. There are no additional restrictions because it isn't addressed in the current contract.
In looking at your TA in 13.M.2 it looks like the company would be limited beyond what the FARs require as to how long you can kept in this FDP limbo world without additional assignment. That's why it's important to have this kind of time defined.
FAA definitions:
Short-call reserve means a period of time in which a flightcrew member is assigned to a reserve availability period.
Reserve availability period means a duty period during which a certificate holder requires a flightcrew member on short call reserve to be available to receive an assignment for a flight duty period.
The FAA defines short-call reserve as a pilot assigned to a RAP. If you've already been assigned into a flight duty period, then by definition you are no longer in a RAP and therefore are not on short-call reserve as the FAA defines it. The FAA would probably define any post-flight or in-between-flights-reserve as airport/standby reserve for regulatory purposes. The ready/airport/standby reserve term has other implications in the Mesa contract (namely extra pay), so they have to call it something else in the contract or else it would be confusing.
I referenced what you asked for. Nothing vague about it. Like I said, there are SEVERAL other iterations of the question that may provide the clarity you're looking for. I didn't link to them all, but I believe Wykoff and Mullen asked them and they are in 2015 IIRC.
I think you're getting confused with terminology. A RAP is NOT part of your FDP. Once the FDP clock has started and then stopped, you cannot go into another FDP or RAP until you have 10 hours of rest. What the FAA is saying in the interpretations is that the company can keep your FDP clock running after your last leg if there is some intention of you flying more, even if they aren't yet aware of it. "We may have some more flying for you later" is acceptable to the FAA for keeping your FDP clock running to the Table B max. It's not a RAP because it's inside of the FDP. It becomes one continuous FDP. Once the company determines it is no longer going to use you and/or the FDP clock runs to its Table B max, you're released to rest.
Now, companies/unions can call this FDP-clock-continuation period whatever they want for compensation/work rule purposes. They may even call it reserve, like you want, but it doesn't change the legal status of that time...it's still FDP time, not a RAP per 117.
Right now, Mesa can keep you on FDP right up until Table B max and then ask you to extend on top of that. There are no additional restrictions because it isn't addressed in the current contract.
In looking at your TA in 13.M.2 it looks like the company would be limited beyond what the FARs require as to how long you can kept in this FDP limbo world without additional assignment. That's why it's important to have this kind of time defined.
FAA definitions:
Short-call reserve means a period of time in which a flightcrew member is assigned to a reserve availability period.
Reserve availability period means a duty period during which a certificate holder requires a flightcrew member on short call reserve to be available to receive an assignment for a flight duty period.
The FAA defines short-call reserve as a pilot assigned to a RAP. If you've already been assigned into a flight duty period, then by definition you are no longer in a RAP and therefore are not on short-call reserve as the FAA defines it. The FAA would probably define any post-flight or in-between-flights-reserve as airport/standby reserve for regulatory purposes. The ready/airport/standby reserve term has other implications in the Mesa contract (namely extra pay), so they have to call it something else in the contract or else it would be confusing.
Fix this section, ADD a day off, no DOS BS (everything in full swing day one), health insurance like everyone else has, better language and definitions, and just maybe we will have a contract that will attract and maintain an adequate pilot staffing level. This POS is not that contract. If you guys believe this contract attracts and keeps pilots, show me. Lots of FO's voting no, you know why??? no health insurance. Its a big F ing deal. JO has made this mess, everything we do now that does not fix all the problems is a concession. You see this word repeatedly. You union guys, without actually saying it, threaten the pilot group by saying this is the contract or the doors close. If this is really the case, ask yourselves, maybe we sent this out prematurely.
end rant.
07-04-2017, 04:55 AM
#110
patience
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,068
Originally Posted by Xdashdriver
Right now, Mesa can keep you on FDP right up until Table B max and then ask you to extend on top of that. There are no additional restrictions because it isn't addressed in the current contract.
Since you can't be extended for additional flying, why on earth would you agree to sit around until you hit the limit on the FDP table? You need at least 1.5 hour buffer to work the shortest possible flight. Why not sit around until 1.5 hours for your max FDP and go home?
Your company or scheduling department may tell you, you can accept 2-hour extensions for additional flying, but remember, you are the one "accepting" the extension on record. If anything happens, you will be hung out to dry for accepting an illegal assignment. We all know, when accepting a 2-hour extension, you've had a long day and chances of "anything happening" increases.
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