Mesa
08-31-2014 | 11:55 AM
#2891
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 0
According to a guy I know hired at delta in 08 and another at united and another at fedex it is all that matters at this level. Just saying.
But it's cool you OO FOs keeping going with that "you don't need TPIC anymore to go to the majors.."
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
But it's cool you OO FOs keeping going with that "you don't need TPIC anymore to go to the majors.."
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Sorry to burst your sell-out bubble, but not an OO FO....
08-31-2014 | 12:00 PM
#2892
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 0
Pretty much why we all came to Mesa. Others went to other regionals a while back, the economy went bad, and then their upgrade times suddenly shot up by years. And you're absolutely right, who wants to do that? Who in their right mind would want to be a regional FO for eight years?
The problem some other people have with Mesa is they feel we underbid other carriers by accepting lower wages, thereby forcing other carriers to cut wages to their employees and causing a "race to the bottom." I don't think that's true, and many others don't either. Many regionals (most? all?) have accepted contracts at a loss because they'd lose more money by having their planes sit unused. These bidding wars between regionals are far more significant than what pilots make, especially when Mesa is basically the same as the rest of the industry. In fact, a while back I made a post that sparked some controversy by having two hypothetical pilots go to Mesa and SkyWest. My theory was that the Mesa guy would come out with more money (due to reaching Captain pay much sooner) and have a lot more seniority at a major airline later since he could get hired there sooner.
What makes this all a passionate discussion right now is that Envoy (American Eagle) pilots have rejected American's contract offer twice in the last few months to try to get a better one; they felt the offers were bad. Now it seems American might just give the offer to Piedmont instead. The Envoy pilots were viewed as taking a stand for the industry, but now it doesn't look good for them.
They should be respected for taking that stand, but there's a sense that anyone who will accept less is essentially stabbing them in the back. With that whole thing, the ball is now in the court of the Piedmont pilots. The problem is, if they don't accept it, they won't get any new planes to replace their old fleet that will be gone in a few years. The economics dictate that they accept in the interest of survival and having a job. But that goes back to the sense of betrayal between pilots.
It's all convoluted and emotional, but at the end of the day, like you, I don't think sitting right seat for eight years sounds fun, prudent, or beneficial. Pilots will always argue, especially with the Internet's anonymity, but at the end of the day you have to do what's best for you. Consider where you live (is it a base for another regional you could see yourself at?), or where you might want to live, as well as career progression. Many think regionals should be a career job; I do not.
The problem some other people have with Mesa is they feel we underbid other carriers by accepting lower wages, thereby forcing other carriers to cut wages to their employees and causing a "race to the bottom." I don't think that's true, and many others don't either. Many regionals (most? all?) have accepted contracts at a loss because they'd lose more money by having their planes sit unused. These bidding wars between regionals are far more significant than what pilots make, especially when Mesa is basically the same as the rest of the industry. In fact, a while back I made a post that sparked some controversy by having two hypothetical pilots go to Mesa and SkyWest. My theory was that the Mesa guy would come out with more money (due to reaching Captain pay much sooner) and have a lot more seniority at a major airline later since he could get hired there sooner.
What makes this all a passionate discussion right now is that Envoy (American Eagle) pilots have rejected American's contract offer twice in the last few months to try to get a better one; they felt the offers were bad. Now it seems American might just give the offer to Piedmont instead. The Envoy pilots were viewed as taking a stand for the industry, but now it doesn't look good for them.
They should be respected for taking that stand, but there's a sense that anyone who will accept less is essentially stabbing them in the back. With that whole thing, the ball is now in the court of the Piedmont pilots. The problem is, if they don't accept it, they won't get any new planes to replace their old fleet that will be gone in a few years. The economics dictate that they accept in the interest of survival and having a job. But that goes back to the sense of betrayal between pilots.
It's all convoluted and emotional, but at the end of the day, like you, I don't think sitting right seat for eight years sounds fun, prudent, or beneficial. Pilots will always argue, especially with the Internet's anonymity, but at the end of the day you have to do what's best for you. Consider where you live (is it a base for another regional you could see yourself at?), or where you might want to live, as well as career progression. Many think regionals should be a career job; I do not.
Where's a picket line to cross when you need one...?
The attitude displayed here in your diatribe against those who are trying to stop the continued slide in this profession is aiding management in their attack on this profession.
08-31-2014 | 12:46 PM
#2894
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Where are the most junior bases and how long to hold a line?
08-31-2014 | 01:03 PM
#2898
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: Bob's Big Boy Front Office Staffer
08-31-2014 | 08:52 PM
#2900
Line Holder
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
I'll keep saying it til I'm blue in the face--the regionals are a zero-sum game--there is no such thing as "raising the bar" at the regionals anymore. The legacies simply look at data tables showing performance metrics and costs for all of their feeders, and if one of them starts climbing too high, they squash the bug with bankruptcy courts and high-paid lawyers, using the legal system to reshuffle the flying around and/or re-write contracts.
IF by some miracle you changed the RLA, obtained a "common transportation system" definition for all equipment operated under the same brand name (tried that with NWA--failed!!!), and decertified ALPA at all regionals, then I might...just might...believe that "raising the bar" regional-wide was a possibility in our distant future.
Pinnacle fought 10 YEARS for a marginally improved contract, with a 99% strike vote on record and a liberal NMB, and guess what? Within a year of getting our hard-fought contract, we were in a sham bankruptcy with a concessionary contract, a 4-year FO payscale, downgrades, furloughs, and a dying airline. MANAGEMENT ALWAYS WINS.
Go to a growing regional regardless of payscales, get your TPIC, and get the heck out. If ALPA national and legacy managements wanted the regionals to be anything other than cheap second-class sharecroppers, we would be.
If we make ourselves too expensive, we necessitate ourselves out of existence. I'm really sorry to the Eagle and XJet and Republic guys--I'm glad you all stood up to management, but the horrible reality we live in with US labor laws and ALPA is that you're all going to regret it eventually. I hate it and I wish it weren't so but it just is--there's nothing to gain here unless there is change at a national level or re-written scope at the legacies.
IF by some miracle you changed the RLA, obtained a "common transportation system" definition for all equipment operated under the same brand name (tried that with NWA--failed!!!), and decertified ALPA at all regionals, then I might...just might...believe that "raising the bar" regional-wide was a possibility in our distant future.
Pinnacle fought 10 YEARS for a marginally improved contract, with a 99% strike vote on record and a liberal NMB, and guess what? Within a year of getting our hard-fought contract, we were in a sham bankruptcy with a concessionary contract, a 4-year FO payscale, downgrades, furloughs, and a dying airline. MANAGEMENT ALWAYS WINS.
Go to a growing regional regardless of payscales, get your TPIC, and get the heck out. If ALPA national and legacy managements wanted the regionals to be anything other than cheap second-class sharecroppers, we would be.
If we make ourselves too expensive, we necessitate ourselves out of existence. I'm really sorry to the Eagle and XJet and Republic guys--I'm glad you all stood up to management, but the horrible reality we live in with US labor laws and ALPA is that you're all going to regret it eventually. I hate it and I wish it weren't so but it just is--there's nothing to gain here unless there is change at a national level or re-written scope at the legacies.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
