rickair7777

Yes, but they can certainly try to tease that info out of your app and resume. You might be able to hide CIP status, since unlike a guard/reserve unit it's not really a current employer you have to list.

DD214 might give that away, I imagine there's some indicator there.

Wheelsoff

Bingo. Advocating the CIP for the purpose of getting hired at a major/legacy and then bailing to AD again is terrible advice in my opinion.

The airlines aren’t dumb and have seen this act before...for example, for a while a certain legacy wouldn’t touch any applicants with a 39.5 ft pole that were associated with a few specific guard/reserve units, because dudes from those units were abusing USERRA. Of course, now there’s a lawsuit against them for it, but still, why jeopardize it and screw all your buddies behind you who have any mil stink on them?

C17B74

“The Air Force Career Intermission Program may be your way to manage short-term conflicts between service and self, enabling the Air Force to retain valuable talent by providing career flexibility to attend to personal and professional needs without having to choose one over the other.” - AFPC

“The airlines aren’t dumb and have seen this act before...” - Wheelsoff

Airlines are NOT dumb, in fact several of them met with our AD, AFRC and our ANG leaders a couple of times 2013-2014. Having been on the perimeter as data mining support, my Bosses sat across from them and they had specific questions... and possible solutions...

They brought their schedules to compare/contrast, etc. - without getting specific, it was a fact gathering mission and we had the data to answer some really detailed questions regarding units/personnel.

Afterwards, here are just a few ideas thrown around to assist both parties:
(No specific order of precedence/it was a think tank spit balling session with an agenda)

Would it be possible for AGRs to have the option to fly just a few weeks every qtr for the airlines?

Pros - Opportunity for the member to gain a line number and serve, Greater Airline accessibility vs long term pure AGR, keeps both sides current/qualified, keep benefits and it provides a cleaner transition from blue to gray just to name a few.

Cons - Total Force calculations, Over-Complicated budgeting with pay stop/start issues, retirement projections fluctuating but trackable and the legal aspects of it all, etc. Units would have a 25-35% part-time 65-75% full-time force adding scheduling issues vs 24/7 on tap.
We already have a designated part-time force.

Can Technician (Mil-Tech GS employees/ARTS) do the same despite not being covered by USERRA overall and sustain a line number. Easier/Harder? LWOP - Leave Without Pay, etc seemed more palatable.

Note: Most airlines require resignation if you take a Tech job and I know of one that doesn’t and another that OK’d my friends AGR tour til retirement well beyond the 5 year limit.

*Will there be oversight on the above if abused?

They asked whether a list could be drawn regarding hard chargers that were being groomed for higher echelons of command in order to better support their longer terms of absence. = non-starter due to favoritism, cronyism, nepotism whatever. Answer was already in place as “USERRA exempt orders...”

Topic of “USERRA exempt” orders and the ability to scrutinize those that are truly mission critical; as a result most stat tour orders rescinded “USERRA exempt” as of May 2015... Many pilots had to return to the fold and others could not plan on this any longer. Very successful move on their part.

“enabling the AIRLINES to retain valuable talent by providing career flexibility to support military service needs without having to choose one over the other.” - my plagiarism / Kind of interchangeable with AFPC definition don’t you think.

Overall, you can ascertain this CIP program is a much easier way for the AF to retain some very experienced folks who were on the fence/punching out/going RC (Reserve Component). The airlines gain the mil pilot early, acclimate them for awhile and count on their return and not departing the fix due to higher seniority. Several of my friends have jumped across the lines of the top 5 when the better deal for them called. Some during training or shortly thereafter and one bud bounced to his third to meet his expectations.

Granted, you can see both sides of the equation and the airlines are running a business; therefore, many will see this as an unfair practice whether on this side of the interview table or the other, mil or not mil.

While I did not use this method, I believe I witnessed where/how this chicken was hatched and how the majors initiated contact followed by invites from the DoD entities. I have been wrong before, but the timelines and discussion topics are all too familiar.

rickair7777

IMO the services need to keep an arms-length approach to airlines, and vice versa. Creating special "have your cake and eat it too" programs for pilots is almost ludicrous. I wouldn't blame the airlines, but I expect more of the government.

There are hundreds of thousands of non-pilot reservists who don't get special employment considerations beyond USERRA.

Pilots aren't that special.

Airlines could pay for training and provide viable career pathways. Problem solved.

The mil needs to bake QOL into it's system. You can suck it up for a short war, but not for 20-30 years.

cheap

I think we get it, rickair, you don’t like this program. It isn’t limited to just pilots, however, anyone in the service is allowed to apply and take advantage of this. While you obviously aren’t on board it is an awesome opportunity to have the cake and eat it for a those who are lucky enough to be at a point in their careers where they can jump in to the majors a few years earlier than their indentured servitude or retirement carrot would have allowed (to avoid being on the back side of the hiring power curve). The services get to squeeze another quart of blood or two out of us as well, which is a win for everyone else.

This was absolutely the right choice for me and my family, and I would definitely make the same choice again if I had to without batting an eye.

C17B74

Bottom Line:
Airlines initiated first contact from where we sat. Maybe one of ours code-called them? Hmmm.

Maybe the government should keep at arms length - is this a violation of some sort in assisting/supporting a business under no contractual bid or otherwise? / I am no lawyer obviously.

*CIP seems across the board, pilot or not, so that was executed correctly whether agreed upon or not.

Kind of like having to pay for your “flight boots” now... Non-flyer highlights they paid for the same type of boots available - why were they categorized as pro-gear and free for the flyers? Everyone should pay, officer wise at least. I get the argument this day and age vs uniform requirements were different back in the day. Unsure about the enlisted, but I believe they should NOT pay period - that’s me and it may already be covered in their uniform allowance I hope.

Regarding all these programs (common sense or not, unfair or not, like them or not) it’s still there for the warfighter as an opportunity.
Until your letters to congressman/senators are heard, cases presented to your bosses are acknowledged, program abuse or eventually the cycle shifts as always and the budget $$$ declines to impact / administration changeover - it will remain.

For the war fighting commander it’s a hair pulling event I’m sure: deployments, training, hiring/end strength reports, etc. Probably why AFPC shutdown those trying to avoid 365 orders when they dropped using retirement orders and separation requests several years back. Now your requested paperwork must be stamped approved at some stage prior to any 365 drop.

Overall, the Bureaucracy is astounding and too complicated for me to ever understand. Heck, there were more ways to get paid (16 if I recall, 9 I can remember now sitting here in China lackadaisically) in the Guard than C130 variants (13 at one time). We have our messes don’t we.

I expect(ed) more from the government as well in many ways Sir Rickair, but after those 24 yrs I learned all the government ever does is manage our expectations as they see fit.” We do/did try our best to mitigate the constant “new-normal.”

*USAF problem. 11F (Fighters) and 11M (Mobility) in dire straights experience wise. 11F’s departing quicker. Stoploss is an answer, but NOT the right answer from my meager point of view. ANG wise, it was getting so bad in the tanker community that their WG/CC & OG council briefed my team in 2014 that a couple of units were holding their AGR commitments to the end vs letting them resign for greener pastures upon being hired. Hopefully that dive has been rectified with new blood desiring gainful employment vs Guard Bumming which worked for me when flying was phat.

In the end, shoot for the opportunity presented. Remember, whether it’s CIP/Stat Tours/alternate deployments/Early Retirement Redux /ANG/AFRC/VA stuff/all orders, etc. - you throw the darts on whatever it may be and they determine what sticks. Commanders or program managers/AFPC flesh peddlers have the final say, it’s up to them hence the extra dollar. You never make the shot you never take.

rickair7777

For clarity, I was not complaining about CIP per se, but rather the USAF conspiring with airlines to manage the comings and goings of pilots.

CIP only provides a windfall for pilots or other unionized, seniority-based jobs like possibly truck drivers.

Most folks who take a white-collar job while on CIP will not return to increased pay and quality of life accumulated in their years of absence to finish the mil commitment/retirement. They'll be lucky to return to the same job at all.

SaltyDog

Agree with C17B74,
Airline management teams constantly talking with DOD decision makers on all things USERRA and staffing. They attempt to work solutions both can make work for same human resource. This is only one conversation industry and DOD have had on staffing. Would guess some airlines agreed to move with DOD in this manner.
Employers also work to amend USERRA to employer advantage.
Times we live.

cheap

I see a huge opportunity for airmen to utilize CIP to attend school full time in order to pursue a commission after their return, but didn’t bother mentioning that as it’s outside the scope of relevance for APC readers. I’ve got a buddy that is in CIP now growing his crash pad business, trying to generate some residual income for the rest of his career. It could be good for someone that knows they’re going to stick with it until retirement but needs to care for a dying family member now or wants to be a stay-at-home parent the last few years before their kid is in school full time (or doesn’t want to be pregnant or nursing while on active duty).

There are windfalls to be had for all kinds of scenarios, and it’s nice that we at least have the option. FWIW, I also applied to TERA a few years back (but was denied, some BS about not being over 15 years of ACTIVE time even though I was over 15 of service, I guess beggars can be choosers) and milked my GI Bill for ~$70k - I’m all for working the system within the limits they’ll allow! But yes this is especially ripe for pilots now considering the hiring environment and USERRA protections.

I really don’t see any danger to USERRA for anyone else from CIP usage if Guard/reserve guys “getting tagged” (volunteering) for orders hadn’t already, especially with voluntary furlough rolling into USERRA protections at recall earning regular ARC dudes active duty retirements with 10+ years of airline hiatus within the last decade.


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SaltyDog

My comment regarding whether an employee is on voluntary or involuntary orders away from an employer is moot. The employee truly only volunteered freely once; When they joined the service component they are presently serving.