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Old 04-11-2019, 04:24 PM   #21  
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LoL! The best officers I had the pleasure of working with were excellent aviators who didn’t care about chasing hours, but did enjoy flying. The worst were in the Staff/PL Flying Clubs.
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Old 04-11-2019, 06:10 PM   #22  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
First of all, LTs (as PLs) have 12-24 months to fly and make PC before they have to go to staff, at which point they will fly mins if they are lucky and certainly will not progress from there skill/proficiency wise. So while you may see it as selfish, it's actually their only real shot of making PC prior to commanding while you guys stay in the company most of your career. Then when those guys step into a command a few years later, they have 6 months to make PC by regulation. If they never made it before, then are out of the cockpit for a year or more (usually several years of low flying while on staff/CCC/staff again), they won't have a great opportunity to be worth a damn as a commander (flying wise).

You guys always wanna bash RLOs for being bad pilots, then you wanna bash them when they take the one slim opportunity they have to progress and become assets to the ATP. As a PL, my CO told us (and our SP) we had to put ourselves on as much or more than the WOs. I didn't have a choice. The other PL in my company was the flight schedule guy, but the SP ended up taking it over from him, and he continued with the commander's instruction. And if a "selfish" PL is putting himself on the flight schedule too much, don't you think the company and battalion commander would stop it since they are the approval for it? I hope since you are complaining on APC, you took your same complaints to your company and battalion commanders when the "selfish" LTs flew too much for your liking.

Despite trying to fly us as much or more than the WOs, with all the other stuff we PLs had on our plates, we ended up flying about the same or less than the W1/W2s on the same timeline to the unit. Then downrange it was pretty much all equal. Then I went to staff and barely flew. Fortunately I made PC 9 months after showing up to my unit and got to fly a lot as a PC/AMC over the next year I had left as a PL, and my old company flew me as much as I could get away while on staff since I was an asset to them when they were short PCs/AMCs, but I saw a lot of other LTs get hosed by the warrants who controlled the flight schedule. Sometimes it was their own fault for sucking at flying or not being in the books enough, but most of the times they just never had an opportunity to fly because they weren't a priority. As one SP told me, "we are hired help and will be gone in a year so we don't matter."

Those LTs are your leaders and future commanders/staff officers. If you want them to be good aviators, it benefits you to ensure they fly a lot as a PL. 2-3 PLs being stick pigs while they are fresh out of flight school trying to make PC won't affect any WOs in the long run. But those guys getting very little flight time as PLs will affect their ability to be good aviators as staff guys and commanders later, which will affect everyone in the unit. RLOs who got hosed by warrants flying-wise early on tended to be the WO-hating commanders later. I'm sure you loved having commanders/S3s who were WO haters. Also, don't you want your leaders to lead by example? If they flew very little and focused on admin stuff, are they really going to be good leaders in a flight platoon or flight company?

This whole discussion is one reason why I left the army and went to the Air Force, where this problem doesn't exist. Rant off.
1. Being a good pilot does not equal being a good leader (this is coming from an exceptional pilot , yet not very good leader) which is why I went warrant.

2. There will ALWAYS be a new PL trying to make PC so to prioritize them over WO (whose primary mission is to fly) because they have "limited time in the line unit" does not build combat power. At the same time you cannot sit a PL on the sideline to prioritize WOs, they NEED to be proficient aviators. There has to be a balance. The "I need to get mine" mindset is detrimental to a unit.

3. If your goal is to be a master aviator and fly 400 hours a year, the commissioned side is not where you belong. At the sometime, if you are the WO who likes to sit there and sharp shoot everything the leadership puts out, either stand-up and take a leadership role or **** and support your leadership.
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Old 04-13-2019, 01:42 PM   #23  
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First, he statement that itís just as hard to go from RLO to warrant versus the other way is crap. Normally as a WO you have to go to OCS if you wish to cross over. RLO to warrant itís much simpler. Yeah, they make you redo the advanced course for CW3... because itís SOOO different. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

PLs getting experience. Itís a balancing act. Aviation is probably the only branch that does not insist itís officers be tactically and technically proficient. Yeah, we give it lip service. But if you look at other branches they live it. Try being a successful infantry officer without a ranger tab. Possible, but itís an uphill battle. Armor without being a master gunner. Aviation? Not so much. Look at how few commissioned officers go to the IP course. I was one of a handful and that was dumb luck.
Yes, you can lead without having flight time. But how well can you employ your assets?
Just look at the Karbala fiasco, essentially a rehash of Lam Son 719. But of course it was. Aviation officers donít study Lam Son 719. They study Chickamauga instead. ďWhat is Rosencrans had an AH-64.Ē
Rant over.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:45 PM   #24  
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
First, he statement that itís just as hard to go from RLO to warrant versus the other way is crap. Normally as a WO you have to go to OCS if you wish to cross over. RLO to warrant itís much simpler. Yeah, they make you redo the advanced course for CW3... because itís SOOO different. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

PLs getting experience. Itís a balancing act. Aviation is probably the only branch that does not insist itís officers be tactically and technically proficient. Yeah, we give it lip service. But if you look at other branches they live it. Try being a successful infantry officer without a ranger tab. Possible, but itís an uphill battle. Armor without being a master gunner. Aviation? Not so much. Look at how few commissioned officers go to the IP course. I was one of a handful and that was dumb luck.
Yes, you can lead without having flight time. But how well can you employ your assets?
Just look at the Karbala fiasco, essentially a rehash of Lam Son 719. But of course it was. Aviation officers donít study Lam Son 719. They study Chickamauga instead. ďWhat is Rosencrans had an AH-64.Ē
Rant over.
So... maybe if the Army didnt have a dual class system (i.e. No Warrants) and ran their aviation like the other FOUR services; the leaders would have an opportunity to actually learn their trade... BEFORE they were, In Charge? Or do we just *have* to be different because we know better?

Kind of like the Armyís need to wear two piece flt suits.... unlike any other branch? At 4 Times the cost. Just one small nonsensical thing that makes you shake your head.

To be clear, there is no one size fits all. Iíve had lots of Great RLOís and Warrants in my career. I made a choice an knew the ramifications before I started my path. I have little sympathy for a LT that comes up to the end of the PL time and freaks out because they are going to sit at a desk. Do I think they should leave me? H3LL NO. I want them to stay flying. ALOT. If anything, moonlight as an Asst S-3. Sometimes good guys (O-2ís leaving Platoon time) got a bum deal and sat in an S-1,S-2,asst. S-3, S-4 position and never flew. Waste a good Aviator IMHO. Why do we have an Adjutant Branch, Military Intel Branch, or Ordnance Branch then?! When I brought this up to a LTC Battalion CDR I was told the poor LTís had to learn how the Army worked outside of aviation before they took command....(WTF? this in an RLO made debacle)
My salty Warrant Officer response was: ďSo, instead of leaving my future leaders with me so I can train them to do their ACTUAL JOB, you take them away from us and teach them stuff your Army trained other LTís to do as their primary job?! So this whole thing is nothing but a situational training exercise for your types as we lowly Ďdo-ersí mire along like the pony express in reverse continually re-learning lessons for a career as LTís and CPTís move along in their careers?Ē
It is very frustrating to put so much time and effort in only to see your great LT/buddy leave for a silly job others spend a career doing.
It is a broken system.
Just my little rant.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:16 AM   #25  
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Originally Posted by Blackhawk View Post
RLO you need to attend OCS. Reverting to warrant is a paper work process.
But yeah, I had to redo the advanced course, because ďthe WO advanced course was different.Ē🙄 Someone took the armor advanced course, snapped aviation on it then WO branch and made it the WO advanced course. So I learned about the levels of MX for tanks. And where a corps smoke asset gets its resuply of smoke. And how an infantry team clears a trench. You know, useful stuff so I could help my BN CO when we deployed. 🙄
Yep, took the exact same course online. 57k dial-up was faster than the Army's net back in those day. PITA!
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:31 AM   #26  
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Originally Posted by Hobbit64 View Post
So... maybe if the Army didnt have a dual class system (i.e. No Warrants) and ran their aviation like the other FOUR services; the leaders would have an opportunity to actually learn their trade... BEFORE they were, In Charge? Or do we just *have* to be different because we know better?

Kind of like the Army’s need to wear two piece flt suits.... unlike any other branch? At 4 Times the cost. Just one small nonsensical thing that makes you shake your head.

To be clear, there is no one size fits all. I’ve had lots of Great RLO’s and Warrants in my career. I made a choice an knew the ramifications before I started my path. I have little sympathy for a LT that comes up to the end of the PL time and freaks out because they are going to sit at a desk. Do I think they should leave me? H3LL NO. I want them to stay flying. ALOT. If anything, moonlight as an Asst S-3. Sometimes good guys (O-2’s leaving Platoon time) got a bum deal and sat in an S-1,S-2,asst. S-3, S-4 position and never flew. Waste a good Aviator IMHO. Why do we have an Adjutant Branch, Military Intel Branch, or Ordnance Branch then?! When I brought this up to a LTC Battalion CDR I was told the poor LT’s had to learn how the Army worked outside of aviation before they took command....(WTF? this in an RLO made debacle)
My salty Warrant Officer response was: “So, instead of leaving my future leaders with me so I can train them to do their ACTUAL JOB, you take them away from us and teach them stuff your Army trained other LT’s to do as their primary job?! So this whole thing is nothing but a situational training exercise for your types as we lowly ‘do-ers’ mire along like the pony express in reverse continually re-learning lessons for a career as LT’s and CPT’s move along in their careers?”
It is very frustrating to put so much time and effort in only to see your great LT/buddy leave for a silly job others spend a career doing.
It is a broken system.
Just my little rant.
Agreed. I've always thought the Army should do away with WOs (why in the hell does the Army need tech warrants?). I would much rather respect both the person and the rank versus the latter. And it's tough to respect your boss if they aren't the subject matter expert with regards to tactics and flying. Oh, there's going to be those here that will say "Oh they're ultimately trained to be strategists not expert flyers." Well, I think it can be soundly argued that you can't be the smartest guy (strategist) in the room if you aren't an expert with tactics and flying. I've flown with and trained a bazillion RLOs in a thirty plus year career. A fair amount of them were decent pilots. Many of them could have been a lot better if the Army would have gotten out of the way.

My present day assessment of a conventional war with China or Russia: we will get smoked. But hey, at least we'll all have nice teeth and a fresh flu shot...

P.S. You bring up an interesting point (reminder) of when I was a NCO in the Army in the mid-late 80s-which was a totally different Army in those days. There were no O-2/O-3 aviators doing personnel tasks down at the squadron HQs. If you had a personnel or adjutant issue you went to the (GUESS) base AG or S1 office. Gee, what a concept huh?

Last edited by Gundriver64; 04-15-2019 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:42 AM   #27  
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Yep, took the exact same course online. 57k dial-up was faster than the Army's net back in those day. PITA!
I tried leaving comments but soon realized no one was reading them. I even got nasty in a drunken rant hoping I would get some kind of response, even a smack down. Nope. Dada. Zip. It was then obvious to me that they just wanted us to check the box.
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:47 AM   #28  
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Originally Posted by Hobbit64 View Post
So... maybe if the Army didnt have a dual class system (i.e. No Warrants) and ran their aviation like the other FOUR services; the leaders would have an opportunity to actually learn their trade... BEFORE they were, In Charge? Or do we just *have* to be different because we know better?

Kind of like the Armyís need to wear two piece flt suits.... unlike any other branch? At 4 Times the cost. Just one small nonsensical thing that makes you shake your head.

To be clear, there is no one size fits all. Iíve had lots of Great RLOís and Warrants in my career. I made a choice an knew the ramifications before I started my path. I have little sympathy for a LT that comes up to the end of the PL time and freaks out because they are going to sit at a desk. Do I think they should leave me? H3LL NO. I want them to stay flying. ALOT. If anything, moonlight as an Asst S-3. Sometimes good guys (O-2ís leaving Platoon time) got a bum deal and sat in an S-1,S-2,asst. S-3, S-4 position and never flew. Waste a good Aviator IMHO. Why do we have an Adjutant Branch, Military Intel Branch, or Ordnance Branch then?! When I brought this up to a LTC Battalion CDR I was told the poor LTís had to learn how the Army worked outside of aviation before they took command....(WTF? this in an RLO made debacle)
My salty Warrant Officer response was: ďSo, instead of leaving my future leaders with me so I can train them to do their ACTUAL JOB, you take them away from us and teach them stuff your Army trained other LTís to do as their primary job?! So this whole thing is nothing but a situational training exercise for your types as we lowly Ďdo-ersí mire along like the pony express in reverse continually re-learning lessons for a career as LTís and CPTís move along in their careers?Ē
It is very frustrating to put so much time and effort in only to see your great LT/buddy leave for a silly job others spend a career doing.
It is a broken system.
Just my little rant.
Some I understood. S-2, work in the S-3 shop. Learn how to employ your assets.
S-1... less so.
160th does this (or did when I was there). S-1 is AG, S-2 is MI, S-4 is QM.
S-3 shop is staffed by very experienced RLOs, WOs and NCOís. When I was an OPSO in the S-3 I had some of the best NCOs I have ever encountered working for me. They made me look like a stud when I realized I had reached my level of incompetence.
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