Military Conversion Times for R-ATP?
11-05-2023, 09:22 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,445
As you can see above, the answer is that there is no answer. There is no regulation that tells you exactly how to convert your mil time to civilian.
Adding .2 or .3 to each sortie is a reasonable and quite conservative way to convert military (wheels up to wheels down) to civilian (wheel movement to wheel stop) time. The thing that you need to be able to do is to defend this as a reasonable practice to whoever is reviewing your logs in an interview. Every airline I know of has accepted this as allowable. I think most FSDOs reviewing logs in any sort of audit would do the same, but it wouldn't hurt to ask someone.
Clear as mud? This is why there is a logbook review in any sort of interview. There are people who will cheat or do dumb stuff. Don't be that guy. Adding .2 or .3 to each line in your logbook isn't cheating or being dumb.
Adding .2 or .3 to each sortie is a reasonable and quite conservative way to convert military (wheels up to wheels down) to civilian (wheel movement to wheel stop) time. The thing that you need to be able to do is to defend this as a reasonable practice to whoever is reviewing your logs in an interview. Every airline I know of has accepted this as allowable. I think most FSDOs reviewing logs in any sort of audit would do the same, but it wouldn't hurt to ask someone.
Clear as mud? This is why there is a logbook review in any sort of interview. There are people who will cheat or do dumb stuff. Don't be that guy. Adding .2 or .3 to each line in your logbook isn't cheating or being dumb.
11-05-2023, 11:43 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by e6bpilot
Clear as mud? This is why there is a logbook review in any sort of interview. There are people who will cheat or do dumb stuff. Don't be that guy. Adding .2 or .3 to each line in your logbook isn't cheating or being dumb.
Adding something to each sortie after the fact is reasonable, assuming your plus up value makes sense wrt to how ops were conducted at the time of the sortie (could vary between platforms and bases). But while it's reasonable, I'm not sure it's 100% defensible from a regulatory perspective... regs say you need X aeronautical experience, logged, and there is no provision for "estimated" time. Now we all tend to estimate our IMC time, never met anyone who hacks a stopwatch in and out of clouds. But the FAA's not up there with us hacking any timers either. In the case of mil total time there is an objective baseline record.
Since it's not written anywhere, it could come down to a personality-driven interpretation. As I mentioned before, if the wrong person decides you did something fraudulent, your tickets are gone. FAA admin law is guilty whenever they say you are, you're welcome to try a lengthy appeal process which rarely comes down on the side of the pilot. Flying is a privilege, you have very few rights.
If you can confirm that a specific airline does it this way, ie people are filling out 8710's and their CMO and APD's are issuing ATP's and type ratings that should be safe enough. But be certain. And don't assume that applies to other airlines without confirmation.
11-05-2023, 01:37 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by Mooose
United's Military Pilot Program page has more information. Here, in the FAQ, they state:
"Certificates and Ratings: Does United use a conversion factor for military flying hours?
Yes, United converts military hours to the equivalent number of hours in our FAA Part 121
operation. This conversion happens in our system and is visible to our pilot-hiring staff. Enter
military flight hours as they appear in your logbook / flying records."
https://careers.united.com/us/en/uni...-pilot-program
https://cdn.phenompeople.com/CareerC...5909784405.pdf
So, they do their own conversions behind the scenes to calculate your hours. But whether that's 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 per sortie, or 1.3 of military flight time is less clear. Regardless of the method used, airlines clearly convert military time to civilian time that helps transitioning military pilots reach the required minimums.
Will be interested to see if anyone else can contribute. I'll report back with what the FSDO says, as well as any recruiters I can get a hold of.
"Certificates and Ratings: Does United use a conversion factor for military flying hours?
Yes, United converts military hours to the equivalent number of hours in our FAA Part 121
operation. This conversion happens in our system and is visible to our pilot-hiring staff. Enter
military flight hours as they appear in your logbook / flying records."
https://careers.united.com/us/en/uni...-pilot-program
https://cdn.phenompeople.com/CareerC...5909784405.pdf
So, they do their own conversions behind the scenes to calculate your hours. But whether that's 0.1, 0.2, 0.3 per sortie, or 1.3 of military flight time is less clear. Regardless of the method used, airlines clearly convert military time to civilian time that helps transitioning military pilots reach the required minimums.
Will be interested to see if anyone else can contribute. I'll report back with what the FSDO says, as well as any recruiters I can get a hold of.
11-05-2023, 07:38 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,684
Originally Posted by Mooose
Right, but as I said initially, 100 of these hours can come from a sim, and various companies do allow for the conversion. So you absolutely can get hired with less than 750 military logged flight hours.
You're right there is no regulation from the FAA about the conversion, but the conversion still exists. I have military friends that have taken advantage of the conversions by United and other companies to reach minimums, which basically means the company is willing to vouch that you actually have the minimum hours. The FAA apparently has no problem with this. But this leaves a regulatory gap. Why is someone below mins allowed to convert their military times via an employer for an FAA certification, but someone who tries to without the backing of an employer unable to?
I have no intention of converting the time myself and plan on logging only what my military docs say, but I am planning on calling the local FSDO come monday.
You're right there is no regulation from the FAA about the conversion, but the conversion still exists. I have military friends that have taken advantage of the conversions by United and other companies to reach minimums, which basically means the company is willing to vouch that you actually have the minimum hours. The FAA apparently has no problem with this. But this leaves a regulatory gap. Why is someone below mins allowed to convert their military times via an employer for an FAA certification, but someone who tries to without the backing of an employer unable to?
I have no intention of converting the time myself and plan on logging only what my military docs say, but I am planning on calling the local FSDO come monday.
11-06-2023, 01:13 PM
#15
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I don't even understand why he thinks the 100 sim hours from the military counts towards anything. Didn't his reference specifically mention only sim time in a FAA approved training course as applicable?
Otherwise - big difference in what specific companies allow for their own applications and what the FARs allow to be counted for time towards ratings/certificates.
tnkrdrvr has it right.
Otherwise - big difference in what specific companies allow for their own applications and what the FARs allow to be counted for time towards ratings/certificates.
tnkrdrvr has it right.
11-11-2023, 08:10 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I don't even understand why he thinks the 100 sim hours from the military counts towards anything. Didn't his reference specifically mention only sim time in a FAA approved training course as applicable?
Otherwise - big difference in what specific companies allow for their own applications and what the FARs allow to be counted for time towards ratings/certificates.
tnkrdrvr has it right.
Otherwise - big difference in what specific companies allow for their own applications and what the FARs allow to be counted for time towards ratings/certificates.
tnkrdrvr has it right.
11-11-2023, 09:53 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,445
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
I don't even understand why he thinks the 100 sim hours from the military counts towards anything. Didn't his reference specifically mention only sim time in a FAA approved training course as applicable?
Otherwise - big difference in what specific companies allow for their own applications and what the FARs allow to be counted for time towards ratings/certificates.
tnkrdrvr has it right.
Otherwise - big difference in what specific companies allow for their own applications and what the FARs allow to be counted for time towards ratings/certificates.
tnkrdrvr has it right.
Show me in the FARs where how to log flight time military vs civil is defined. Hint...it doesn't exist. That is most definitely on purpose.
11-11-2023, 12:08 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 199
Originally Posted by Mooose
Yup, another question about converting military time. But this is a unique one, I promise.
We know you qualify for an R-ATP at 750 hours if you went through a military flight program. However, 100 hours of this total can be in a simulator, per 61.159:
"Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section or § 61.160 may be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device provided the device represents an airplane and the aeronautical experience was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter. "
It's important to note that the military simulators do not count towards this, but simulators from FSI and CAE do. So, as a military aviator, you can technically qualify for an R-ATP at 650 flight hours, right?
But wait, we can go even lower. Many employers allow for a conversion adjustment of military time to civilian. Some allow for 0.3, 0.2, or 0.1 per sortie, and others multiply your military time by 1.3.
So here's my question: If you're below the 750 hour requirement (650 flight + 100 sim hours), can you still get an R-ATP on your own? Or can you only do it through companies that convert your time a certain way? For example, if I add 0.3 for every military sortie or multiply my military flight time by 1.3, I'm able to reach the 750 requirement. However if I only add 0.2 or 0.1 for every military sortie, I don't meet the 750 number. If I were to pursue my R-ATP on my own dime, would the examiner reviewing my hours be okay with converting my military time a certain way?
We know you qualify for an R-ATP at 750 hours if you went through a military flight program. However, 100 hours of this total can be in a simulator, per 61.159:
"Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section or § 61.160 may be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device provided the device represents an airplane and the aeronautical experience was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter. "
It's important to note that the military simulators do not count towards this, but simulators from FSI and CAE do. So, as a military aviator, you can technically qualify for an R-ATP at 650 flight hours, right?
But wait, we can go even lower. Many employers allow for a conversion adjustment of military time to civilian. Some allow for 0.3, 0.2, or 0.1 per sortie, and others multiply your military time by 1.3.
So here's my question: If you're below the 750 hour requirement (650 flight + 100 sim hours), can you still get an R-ATP on your own? Or can you only do it through companies that convert your time a certain way? For example, if I add 0.3 for every military sortie or multiply my military flight time by 1.3, I'm able to reach the 750 requirement. However if I only add 0.2 or 0.1 for every military sortie, I don't meet the 750 number. If I were to pursue my R-ATP on my own dime, would the examiner reviewing my hours be okay with converting my military time a certain way?
11-13-2023, 06:58 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
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Posts: 5,213
Originally Posted by rickair7777
I would argue that if you log your time along the way, FAA style, that's 100% defensible.
However I used the official off and on times with no 'coversion' factor to try and replicate how the FAA defines flight time. So my official military time, logged in tenths, is slightly different than my actual military time that was logged to the minute.
If any airline allows you to use a 'correction factor' that's the AIRLINE's policy and has nothing to do with the FAA or military definition of logging time.
11-13-2023, 07:45 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by e6bpilot
Show me in the FARs where how to log flight time military vs civil is defined. Hint...it doesn't exist. That is most definitely on purpose.
If you didn't do that, and have to rely on mil records then you'll come up shorter than what you were entitled to (for FAA purposes).
The problem here is that retroactively applying a conversion factor years after the fact is "estimating" and may not technically rise to the level of "logged" flight time as specified in the regs. That might get you in trouble. IMO that would be personality dependent with whoever was looking at it. If it were me (prior DPE) I'd consider it reasonable if you could aticulate your normal mission profile, flght vs. ground time.
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