TipTip35

For SWA you might not break even. TankerDriver gave a pretty good explanation of the bay. The bottom line is that a 10 yr pilot is probably a Major and making over 100K (with the bonus). The Air Force Academy did a study several years ago and it indicated that if a pilot left the military at the half way point and had normal progression with an airline (legacy carriers) that in the end you would make more getting out. The problem is that assumes you dont get furloughed and it also assumed the 150-200k salaries that the 10+ yr airline guys were making. Obviously the low cost carriers arent paying that much so it might pay (financially) to stay in the military. However, the QOL issues are probably what makes the difference. AF QOL isnt bad...I actually like the military but there's still a lot I dont like. Most importantly, as TankerDriver pointed out you are an officer first so if you think you're going to fly 20 yrs you are sadly mistaken. We do a lot of other stuff that becomes a pain sometimes (IMO). I'd rather be a airline guy who shows up, flies, and then goes home when he's done. No office work, no deployments, no taking classes/jobs just to get promoted, no moving your family every 3 yrs, no "playing the game", no dodging AAA going into Iraq.

As for job security the military was secure (obviously) post-9/11 but the military has booted people in the past and it looks the AF is about to do it again. Anyone who saw last weeks AF Times probably saw that the AF says it needs to let 55k people go in the next 5 years and they are talking about involuntary seperating people....so the military may not always be the picture of stability we brag about today....

LAfrequentflyer

I meet the force shaping board this April...

-LA

TankerDriver

Hey Skiutah,

Did they give you a DOS or did you request a DOS? In other words, when applying for PC, can you request a specific DOS to give yourself time to move? Say a few months or so or do they make you seperate ASAP?

OldAg84

Thanks for the explanations TD and TT. It sounds like it can be a difficult choice to make- obviously the AF wants to make it that way; especially after the training investment.

Either way; good luck.

Tanker-driver

The other tankerdriver is right -- the Air Force is not a flying career. In fact, many of us are very frustrated that the Air Force doesn't seem to take flying seriously. With the exception of the initial Undergraduate Pilot Training, pretty much every upgrade afterwards is simply a "check the box" routine (at least in heavies). Virtually everyone goes to left seat upgrade around the 2 year point. They don't wash anyone out. You can have as little as 800hrs in your aircraft, little or no actual flying ability or comprehension of systems, be a total s--tbag, and you'll still find yourself in the left seat of a 300,000 lb jet. Same goes for instructor school where you'll find yourself a year or two after you become an AC. If you don't upgrade within the Air Force's timeframe, future promotion boards will begin to ask questions. So units pretty much send aircrew to upgrades at very close to the minimum requirements. Oh, and by the way, those minimums are being waved lower and lower. Why? Because the Air Force insists on taking experienced pilots out of the cockpit so they can do staff assignments/professional military education/etc. at the predetermined time so they can get good OPRs and keep getting promoted. The Air Force is so obsessed with the career progression of its officers that it is forgetting about the mission. An inexperienced crew force isn't the only thing detracting from the overall proficiency of the crew force. As TD alluded, not only are we young and inexperienced, but we also never get to fly. This is because we spend our time volunteering as tax reps, acting as telemarketers for the Combined Federal Campaign, taking Squadron Officer School by correspondence so we can be competitive to go in residence, coming up with new and imaginitave ways to spend excess taxpayer dollars (every squadron needs AT LEAST a dozen plasma TVs right?), and thats just scratching the surface. Does the Air Force need its pilots wasting their time like this? Of course not. But the Air Force thinks it can turn us all into great leaders with experiences like these and so insists on them. In my opinion, the Air Force could do away with half the pilot force, fly the rest 75 hours a month, and still have excess crews. Consider the fact that we move every 3 years to and from locations that aren't exactly garden spots, spend 200 plus days a year in the desert, subject our families to substandard healthcare, schools, and living standards, and deal with "support" organizations that convince their personnel that they have the most important jobs in the military, and its easy to see why some of us are looking at getting out. To anyone looking at the active duty Air Force as a flying career I'd say look at the Guard or Reserve first. However, if you'd like an inside look at politics, waste, and inefficiency, come right in.

Tanker-driver

Just saw the post above and realized that its an incredibly long rant. Sorry -- sometimes I just get a little excited about these things.

HSLD

Hey that's why we're here! Rant away!

On a related note, we've been looking to publish MIL rates on this site's payrate section. Do have a source for current rates?

LAfrequentflyer

www.dfas.mil

Pay rates I assume...

-LA

TankerDriver

Amen tanker-brotha! I'm laughing my rear end off. You took the words right out of my mouth. To add some more to the rant, I am constantly amazed at how many pilots I meet in the AF that really aren't into flying all that much. Their first time flying an aircraft was in UPT or IFT (PPL) and couldn't tell you the difference between a C172 and a PA28 or a 737 from a 757 and the best part is, they don't give a crap either. However, they love themselves some staff work and getting as many bullets on their OPR as they can!! I have been amazed since the get go in the AF at how quickly we upgrade to the left seat. Whether you're ready or not, it doesn't matter. You're going and like T-D said, it's more of a check in the box than anything. So, we've got copilots with 800-1000 hours of flying circles over Iraq going to the left seat with no other real world experience and guess who's arse it is when the poop hits the fan? This is how accidents happen. The lack of proficiency here with some of our pilots is not even funny. It's like you have to turn the pilot job on and off like a switch. This month I'm a secretary, next month I may be a pilot again. And oh by the way, I've got a check ride coming up next month so I better get as much as I can out of that 1 flight I get this month to stay current (again, a check in the box more than anything). Aarrrgh!!! Sorry, just venting like T-D.

It is important for people interested in the military to get the full story and not just a recruiter's story. I wish I would have known the real deal before signing, because I'm not so sure I would have if I did. Keep in mind, this could be all airframe/community specific. You'd be amazed at how differently people do things at other tanker bases alone, not even in other MAJCOMs like ACC.

BTW, Direct link to payscales and if anyone needs an explanation of mil pay, the dod sight above it where to go:

http://www.dod.mil/dfas/money/milpay...%20updated.pdf

TipTip35

Well I'm looking seriously into getting out of the military but I'm going to have to defend the AF a little bit on this one. The thing we have to remember is that no one takes an oath to be a pilot. We take an oath to be officers and consequently to be leaders. The AF has its mission but as with any organization it needs leadership to handle all the administration and managing or that group. That would be the officers. Now we fly a lot our first 4-8 years on active duty but then as has been mentioned in previous post the AF starts to push us towards schools and non-flying assignments. Why? Because in order for us to be effective leaders from years 10 and up we need to broaden our experiences and knowledge (hence SOS, ACSC, AWC, etc). We spent the first few years flying, learning, and doing the mission which is necessary to be an effective leader. You can equate it to the McDonalds CEO flipping burgers so they know whats happening on the front lines of their "company". Many of lose sight of this or never actually understand it. The AF never recruited us to fly for 20 yrs. Think about it...officers are leaders (or supposed to be) and enlisted are technical experts. If the AF wanted 20 yr pilots they would just make us all warrant officers or enlisted like the Army does (and cut your pay in half). The problem is that when we were all young and bright eyed many of us were lured in by fast/big jets. Some (myself included) came in for the sole purpose of getting flight time in good jets so we could head to the airlines. Now I'm not knocking anyone for doing that b/c we are providing service to the AF but we cant look surprised when the AF says "ok enough flying come do some leadership stuff". We made a deal and nowhere did they even suggest we could fly our entire career.

As for the caliber of pilots I kinda disagree that military pilots arent that good. I agree that some slugs can slip through and that upgrades are sometimes simply to check a block but you have to remember that we are already pilots. UPT kicks your butt and weeds out some. After that you're a pilot and its just a matter of learning your particular airframe. The AF spends a lot with our training and I think we take it for granted. Have you noticed that airlines and most civilian pilots dont do transition. They do their annual (not sure how often) sim training (just as we do) and thats probably about it. In addition, we do all kinds of missions to all kinds of fields. Its not always one ILS to a full stop at some airfield with great support that our company goes to all the time. We dont fly as frequently as they do but somehow the mission has been getting done all these years with no more accidents than the civilian sector...

Well now I'm ranting...I'm actually all for punching if you can and like I said I'm even trying to get out myself but I just think we should be fair to the AF..they may ask alot but they've also given us a lot....