kronan

XL,

the FAA has some issues with UAVs period, doesn't really matter who is at the controls. All flight is predicated upon see and avoid and the big question is how does the UAV see and avoid anything.

The big concern for some of us unfortunate enough to live through the McPeak era of "banking" pilots is taking 3 yrs off does have an impact on your skills and your standings vs your peers.

At the end of 3 yrs (assuming there is no "ace" program for UAVs), you are coming back to a MWS behind the power curve.
1. The AF is going to give you as little recurrent training as they can get away with so at least a small percentage of the UAV guys coming back aren't going to make it through training (not every banked fighter guy made it through, and, it wasn't a fun group to train)
2. Compared to the guys who got FAIP'd, you are still screwed. Pretty much every plane out there has faster upgrades for people who have experience flying other planes vs the guy coming into the jet w/ only student time. Will a guy upgrade to FL/AC a couple of months after reaching his first "real" assigment after UAVs? God knows, I sure as hell hope not.
3. SO, now you are up for your Major's board and the rest of your peers are AC/FLs/IPs. During the minimal time the board has to review all the records, how do they take into account the fact that you are doing 1st LT work while the rest of your peers have been doing Capt work because your first tour was in UAVs?
Even worse for the LTC board.
4. You need X number of your years in a MWS to keep getting flight pay. You are behind the power curve. You have 1 yr of pilot training, has to be a month or two training on UAVs, followed by a 3yr tour. Puts you 4 in change heading back for some more UPT training, followed by6-10 months of training before you show up for your first MWS.....so, you are at the 5-6 yr point in your AF career with only very specialize training and minimal exposure to the enlisted guys who are the backbone (and majority) of the AF. How do you learn to lead when you have literally been flying a desk?
5. You are now up for your 3rd assigment. Until the AF changes the rules, have to keep you flying in a MWS. Or, will it be better for the AF to get an "experienced" guy back into the ever expanding UAV field.
6. Barring some dramatic shift in the hiring demographics, you are essentially locked in for 20. When your pilot training commitment ends you will have dramatically less PIC time than your peers.

USMCFLYR

You're not saying that a guy goes right from being a student to FL/AC upgrades in a few months are you? As far as an "assignment" goes, who to say that it isn't a "real assignment". It is certainly sad that a pilot gets trained for xxx amount of dollars and then spends the first three years of their career doing something else which is aviation related but not what they expected to do. We are going to be sending new FRS graduates to IA billets right after training to be FW taskers or ATO planners. At least it isn't going to be for 3 years though - ouch.
Why is it 1stLt's work? Who knows what other jobs may be assigned and what duties are given that may give this young officer great exposure. IS the AF that much different from the other services? Our system changed quite a few years ago but I do remember being told by my boss in my first squadron that there was only ONE block on my Fitness Report that had to do with my flying ability and every other block was graded on how I did my **ground** job. For instance - if our pilots get sent to UAVs they are usually put into some type of command position - maybe a platoon commander or such - giving them more COMMAND time than any fleet peer. In the USMC - this is golden! Of course that could just be some service differences.
As for leading people - again it depends on what he is doing outside the times that he would actually be flying/controlling the UAV. In my service the greatest chances to LEAD people come from our tours out of the cockpit - or if you happen to be down in maintenance, which I understand AF pilots don't thave the chance.
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Unless you're concerned about flight times when you get out of the military why would you be worried about the number of PIC hours when you are still in the AF? What I've seen in the the last few years is it is much more of a concern what jobs you have had (especially joint) than how many PIC hours you have; so if you worried about making LTC - get OUT of the cockpit and into that joint staff tour to increase your chances for promotion. That is what they told me too do. I was never good at taking advice

USMCFLYR

Sputnik

After a tour as a FAIP/C21 pilot when you get to your MWS you will upgrade to AC within the first year. And IP soon after. So I think the question is, will the AF rapidly upgrade these guys (a la FAIPs/C21 dudes), or will they go through the same slow upgrade process as a Lt? I'm guessing/hoping the latter but we'll see.

1Lt's work--pretty sure he was referencing the aircraft qualification. As in, at the Maj's board every other guy you're competing with will have been an AC or probably IP in an MWS. You are correct for the most part in that flying doesn't count for much, but it's almost like filling a square. You want to check MWS AC and IP boxes.

Everyone should worry about what they're going to do when they leave the military because sooner or later you're leaving one way or the other. PIC hours are an important consideration if you've any desire to fly on the outside. I still think you'll be okay. By the time you make 10 years most of your peers will have done an outside the MWS assignment, possibly non flying, as well. As long as the next two tours post UAV are flying, I think it'll work out.

The ref to years in MWS I'm not sure of. Do not know of any requirement for that to get flight pay. You do have to hit "gate months," I think called OFDA, don't remember/care what that stands for. You start accumulating gate months when you begin UPT. As long as you're flying you continue to accumulate, you have to have a certain number of months at various year points in your career to keep getting flight pay. The CSAF memo was explicit that UAV operators will continue to accumulate gate months, so I don't see any concerns with flight pay.

As a UAV guy you're actually in the seat with an enlisted guy, which is more than most of us will ever do. I have no idea the makeup of a UAV squadron, but I'm betting there's more enlisted than in a fighter squadron (outside of mx). I think you're okay on that score. You'll definately have more enlisted interaction than I did as a FAIP.

My concern regarding career is that as far as I know, they are so undermanned in UAVs that ALL you do is fly, 5-6 days a week, all day. Which leaves little time to accumulate non-flying related OPR bullets. Not as much concern for a guy straight out of UPT, but it must kill older guys who go there.

USMCFLYR

Absolutely everyone should worry about it someday - but when you first get to your MWS or the fleet - your concentration needs to be on your job - I think you'd agree. My point about hours was that after a minimum tour in the military I'm assuming that you will have most if not all of the hours and qualification that you would need to succeed in the civilian world - at least at the regional level or above. Maybe not at the corporate or fractional levels. Before somebody jumps on this statement - I am basing this off of MY community. First term pilots getting out have all the qualifiation and flight hours that they need to apply at the regionals, legacy majors, and FedEx/UPS. Ones that are looking at applying to the fractionals world - specifically NetJets - are struggling to get the 2500TT. YMMV.

If this is true and they are giving flight gate window credit for the UAV tour - then it is a non-issue as far as flight pay goes. Good for them.

USMCFLYR

Tweetdrvr

I am usually the gloom and doom pessimist, but there may be a good deal here for the UAV guys.

If the AF keeps their word and these guys get to come back to the cockpit in 3 or so years, I could see AETC needing IPs to come sing the praises of UAVs, just like they want fighter folks, rotor folks, and airlifters in Phase II to give the students the perspective on what is out there and what life is like in the fleet.

We used to have a career trainer track. Maybe you will see folks bounce back and forth between UAVs and AETC. They won't have MWS stink for a promotion board, but they will certainly be on the pointy end of the spear and have been involved in numerous real world operations with plenty of awards and decorations. As the ground floor of initial to UAV out of UPT cadre, they may be able to bounce between the two worlds and set themselves up as DO/SQ CC material in either. A second tour as a trainer IP would give plenty of IP/PIC time, offer the chance to be a UPT flight commander and probably squadron ADO before going back to the UAV world.

Even if they set up a UAV only separate aeronautical rating, hopefully they would allow pilots who chose to do so or were medically forced out of flying to continue to do these as a career broadening experience.

They don't have trouble sending people to Nav/CSO after washing out of UPT. If their test average is above 92%, they can ask to go, then it depends on why they washed out, but usually if academics are not the reason guys can go and there is no stigma associated with being a prior UPT guy as a Nav. We had several dudes in my Nav class at good old Mather who had what we called "pre Nav" time.

FLY6584

Hey Sputnik I never saw this memo that you are talking about. I've read every article about this, but still haven't seen a memo from the CSAF. Can you tell me if it said anything about how they are going to choose UAV guys out of phase 3? All the articles I've read say they are going to take everyone from average guys to top graduates so I'm a bit worried. Personally I think thats total BS. Why can't it be merit based like the rest of the assignments(aside from FAIP)? You mean to tell me that just because I finish at the top of the class that my wings are worth more than the dude that finished last in my class? If that guy at the bottom was good enough to earn his wings I think he is good enough to fly UAV's. We both earned the same set of wings and therefore are qualified to fly anything from our respective tracks(aside from FAIPing) so it should come down to merit and personal choice. Just my personal opinion.

Sputnik

Unfortunately I deleted it to make room in inbox, but it didn't specify any of that. It just said 100 guys/year, and that they'd come from 1, 38, and 44 tracks. My guess is that it'll be the same as everything else, you put in your choices and hope for the best (i.e. merit). But it's just a guess, I've no more guidance on that than the next guy.

magicrat

Slightly off topic....

I heard they are taking prior-active duty reservist back on active duty to fly UAVs. Anyone else heard this? If so....where are they going?

kronan

Pretty sure they would be going to beautiful Creech AFB, NV (as an old guy, I'll still think of it as Indian Springs....and, as a place I wouldn't want to throw the gear down for a practice approach :-) )

First and foremost, every Marine is a rifleman. But, AF is totally different.

Very briefly, to upgrade to FL, need at least 300 hours in the plane....or, 400 hours of FP/MP/IP in in an AFSC of 11Fxx, 11K3C, or 11K3D, of which 200 hours are in the plane.....or, 50 hours in the plane if previously qualified as an 11Fxx FL (or other US/foreign military equivalent)

So, basically, a guy who was a FAIP does a month or two in the squadron then upgrades to FL which puts the upgrade to IP once he has more experience. Worst case was overseas when USAFE used to require 90 days in theatre before upgrading.
Not as familiar with it, but the C17 training reg seems to indicate a guy needs 1100 total and 400 in the plane to upgrade to AC

Will the total time limits hold true for an UAV guy who has a bazillion hours flying UAVs? I should hope not. So, a guy going from UAVs to fighters is starting at 0....so, a little after a year this pilot is going to upgrade to FL. And probably won't upgrade to IP since the end of the tour is approaching quickly and there is only so much training the squadron can do.

Is this UAV guy going to be the Flt CC/shop chief his rank should dictate? Nah, he has no experience in how things are done in that particular weapons system and isn't likely going to be given credit for the role he played in the UAV world. Afterall, 90% of his/her peers have spent the last 3-5 years in that career field. So, UAV guy is the snacko.

So, now you are the 0-6 trying to delineate your people for promotion. In one stack, you have the people who are IPs/ACs/Flt CCs....in the other, people who aren't.

It's a crappy situation. But, I have too many friends who failed to make Major in the 90s for very similar reasons. (One was an engineer who went to pilot training at the 4 yr point, a couple others were FACs who wound up with assignments with CCs who felt the Squad had enough FLs/IPs so they didn't conduct any upgrade training)

If you get UAVs, and want to stay career, then IMHO--you are better off staying and becoming King UAV

Flameout

I see no reason why an increasing number of CUAV missions, including CAS, can't be flown by contractors. In fact, based on all I know and have heard, it's clear to me this is where UAV ops in general are going in the future. Makes perfect sense to me. The contractors aren't exposed to danger, and for most (those based in the US) there isn't any discomfort or separation from family -- it's a 9-to-5 job. This idea of the need for a qualified pilot to be at the UAV controls when dropping ordnance -- that's just baloney, sorry to say. GPS coordinates will determine the aim point, drop point, etc., and whether a qualified military pilot is at the controls or a non-pilot civilian contractor isn't going to change that fundamental fact.

There will still be a place for military pilots in refuellers, cargo aircraft, and aircraft operating from a carrier. Ditto (for the next 10-15 years anyway) for manned fighters. But 15+ years out, I don't see many manned fighters or strike aircraft remaining in the inventory -- except those operating from carriers. If/when unmanned systems can demonstrate consistent high success rates in launching and recovering from carriers in all kinds of weather and sea states, then I expect those manned billets to go away too.