LivingInMEM

But they aren't killing foreign citizens in offensive military operations.

As far as the other candidates they are seking for this system, I haven't seen a good decision out of our military leadership, yet - why should they start now? Money savings and manning expediency are the priority while combat effectiveness and support of the soldiers on the ground don't even come into play.

Their decision would be different if they could be charged with criminal negligence if any soldier is wounded or killed as a direct consequence to this push for lower experience. I don't see why they couldn't face those consequences as they are quick to charge pilots with negligent manslaughter and Special Ops soldiers with manslaughter/homicide for seemingly poor decisions (in their minds) made on the battlefield.

Jaxs170

First one dropped at Vance last night, an MQ-9. The kid who got it was told the night before by his flight leadership to avoid the bomb being dropped at the selection show.

It was nice to see all his classmates come up and give him a hug in front of everyone (and it was beyond standing room only), plus give him a few gallons of booze. What was disappointing was seeing some of the leadership playing cheerleader when they must know this guy probably just had all his dreams crushed after all that work. Everyone knows this is business and the way of the future, but we are not there yet, so a little empathy would be nice.

This was a T-1 kid. We heard the -38s were getting one as well, but nothing showed up on the screen for anyone. The folks who got FAIPed and RC-12s (one RC-12 for T-1s and one for -38s) were very happy in comparison. Sad to think that a few years down the road the unmanned stuff will start to simply take away normal pilot slots as we know them today, and only a few lucky hundred per year will even get a chance at a manned cockpit.

Spanky189

The implications made on 9 pages of this thread that only 'fighter pilots' are qualified to drop bombs, provide CAS, etc are sickening!

People, UPT Grads and contractors, can be trained to do the job. They could, probably, do a better job than Mr. Fighter Pilot because their attention is more focused on the target rather than G's, flying the airplane, fuel concerns, enemy fire, etc. Akin to people driving while talking on their cell phone, need I say more?

I know it's a tough pill to swallow for Mr. Fighter Pilot but your job is becoming obsolete. Why spend money on training you and developing new weapon systems for you to fly when it is much more cost effective to use nonpilots and drones? Yes, like it or not, it's about the cost.

The moral arguments that were brought up are a diversion, at best. The fighter pilot that drops a bomb has no idea that his ordinance will be more accurate then a bomb from a UAV. To assume so is pure arrogance.

As a troop on the ground, I'd much rather have 2 or 3 UAVs with 24 hours duration over my head than any fighter with 2 or 3 hours, maybe.

Maybe, since only fighter pilots can make 'the call', they should be the only ones flying UAVs and manning the missle silos in Montana.

PS - Sorry to the UPT guys that get UAVs. On the bright side, it's better than the 3 year desk job deal in the '90s.

PSS- Not intended to attack all 'fighter' pilots! You do a great job except for the one posting here from MEM and the guy I just did a 4 day with.

ugleeual

The implications made on 9 pages of this thread that only 'fighter pilots' are qualified to drop bombs, provide CAS, etc are sickening!

"People, UPT Grads and contractors, can be trained to do the job. They could, probably, do a better job than Mr. Fighter Pilot because their attention is more focused on the target rather than G's, flying the airplane, fuel concerns, enemy fire, etc. Akin to people driving while talking on their cell phone, need I say more?"

You cannot teach someone "experience". Experience comes from doing it along time. In this case, being trained in a fighter the pilot learns/practices the need to make decisions on weapons employment that cannot be "taught" in a classroom. I agree that you could put a civilian in the seat for along time... but the experience will come with time... not instruction.

shane123

Does anyone know how this affects guys going to ENJJPT?

Do they have a chance of geting UAVs now, or is it just UPT grads at this point?

LivingInMEM

Spanky,

Was this a drunk post? I would say that, not only are fighter pilots the only ones qualified to do CAS; but airline pilots are the only ones to land airliners; doctors are the only ones qualified to do surgery; etc. Do you know what qualified even means? Do you know that we can tell how little thought you have even given tactical ops by what you say and how you say it?

I am tired of you extra-sensitive people who think that this PC BS has a place in combat. You know what, "fighter dudes" as you call them (and I will include any front-line offensive weapon system in this group) have skillsets and knowledge that the typical heavy driver does not - suck it up. If the individual that went the heavy route had gone fighters instead, then he would have those very same skills. Find someone who flew heavies then fighters, and ask them if there is a difference.

First of all, if fighter pilots show up to the fight as late as you did, they will generally be able to benefit from the "intel" gained from reading those 9 pages. The implications (your word) of this thread are actually: 1. Most dudes in the USAF don't want the possibility of being assigned involuntarily to a UAS at the expense of leaving a manned cockpit, 2. there is a dispute over whether civilian contractors can legitimately employ ordnance in an offensive (vs defensive) manner, 3. that guy from Memphis said that this was not a place for OJT, the actual execution of the mission is more complex than even you understand, and the USAF needs to put combat capability first on the priority list over expediency.

To demonstrate just one facet of your limited knowledge, I will address the fact that you would focus more on the target than the fighter guy would - and I am sure that you would, and that would get someone killed. The average fighter guy knows that there is a time to focus on the target, and there is also definitely a time when you do not focus on the target - it's called pop-up threats, and they usually don't pop up from the target itself. Sometimes, someone needs to go back into search mode and look for additional threats, and the fighter guy knows not only that he needs to go to search, but when. And he knows all of that from his EXPERIENCE.

You know, I agree that any heavy driver can learn about the complexities of the combat airspace environment; the inner workings, limfacs, and capabilities of all the players in theater; the proper use of 3-1 comm; the blast effects and delivery parameters of all of the weapons involved; the weapons employment requirements with respect to the ROE, etc. To get that knowledge, he could serve in the cockpit of a weapons-delivering frontline asset and gain that critical experience from actually doing the job over there. You learn from being over there, that way later on you can visualize what is going on over there when you are over here. If you haven't been over there and experienced it firsthand, it is kind of hard to visualize it all. If you knew anything about the UAS platforms right now, you would know that there is NO training going on after RTU graduation - it is all combat ops - no time for OJT. And if you knew any of the Army forces on the ground who have suffered from mistakes made by UAS forces, you would know that they do not want to be getting support from someone getting OJT.

Your argument is no different than saying that I should do your hernia operation because I could I learn just like that doctor did, but somehow without having to go the same route as the doctor. Wouldn't it be great if it worked that way - but, it doesn't.

USMCFLYR

Anybody see the movie 'Body Of Lies' this weekend? Shows some AF looking guys flying UAVs around.

USMCFLYR

crewdawg

The next drop is in a week or two. They were told 2-3 UAV's, so no, ENJJPT is not immune. We have been getting U-28/NSA since the beginning of the year. Will be interesting to see if they get a RC-12.

shane123

crewdawg....if possible, can you post on here once the drop comes down and how many UAVs are handed out vs. how many slots total?

'preciate it.

Spanky189

Mr. Memphis,
Could spar all day (nicely and welcomed) and we obviously have differences on your perception of the manufactured difficulties of combat ops in an AOR, (pretend I put a bunch more acronyms here to artificially inflate your perceptions)...etc.

The funniest thing was your last paragraph. I did in fact have a hernia surgery a couple months ago. It wasn't pleasant, I'm still alive, results were acceptable (not 100%). Did it matter how much 'experience' the doctor had or what 'tools' he was using? Not when I needed him! Just an analogy,...

UPT guys -Yeah the UAV assignment is not the preffered one. It is, however, better then a desk. You'll gain alot of 'experience' doing this (more than a desk) and will be better off in the future since the last fighter pilot to be born is already 4 years old.