Military pilots flying as civilians
02-17-2009 | 02:53 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 108
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From: Falcon 900B
I couldn't remember. Like I said - it seems to catch them off guard. Maybe it is the fact that each aircraft has to make his own gear call (except on a section approach). Does each member of the flight make their own? Also - the base leg (though we don't have a standard base leg) is past the point that we would normally call the gear. I remember from my GA flying that no gear call is required, but about the only other thing I remember from the GA pattern is GUMPS 
USMCFLYR
USMCFLYR
After initial, when each acft has pitched out, they make their own calls...but nothing's required until starting the base turn. Then you'll hear: MOONDOG 11, Left base, gear down, full stop 18L. Which is then echoed by MOONDOG 12, 13, 14, etc. when they each start their base turn.
02-17-2009 | 05:50 PM
#52
New Hire
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Great thread here - as a longtime lurker quite the read.
over 99% of my time is military. Most of it is Navy hornets and about 500 in the T-34. I got a real appreciation in the T-34 on the GA side. I can still remember thinking "I don't have to talk to anyone, I can just zip around VFR." It was some great flying that I really enjoyed. Probably the best was instructing other instructors with 1000+ jet time and seeing how uncomfortable they were getting back into a prop plane and then dealing with VFR and the GA side of the house. I for one had never looked at a VFR chart and all the info that can be gleaned from it. I learned a ton doing the VFR and GA flying.
For my non military GA side of the house - I got my ATP. It was classic. Three flights in a Dutchess. First two with a young kid about 23 or so. Flew for about 3 hrs total. Talk about being out of my comfort zone. Three power levers on each engine, crazy dials, VOR again, outer marker beacons, radios, etc. Go ahead, feather the prop - how come the engine is stopped and the prop isn't moving? Ah yes, piston engine not a turbine. Then I went for the check flight. About 30 sec after takeoff I was on the visor thing, working some crazy instrument scan, shooting a VOR on some whacked out approach. It was brutal. Thankfully the instructor got giddy when I paid him $1800 in cash and gave me a mercy qual. As my buddy said after he got his ATP here - you are a fool to take that out IFR even though you just got the ATP.
over 99% of my time is military. Most of it is Navy hornets and about 500 in the T-34. I got a real appreciation in the T-34 on the GA side. I can still remember thinking "I don't have to talk to anyone, I can just zip around VFR." It was some great flying that I really enjoyed. Probably the best was instructing other instructors with 1000+ jet time and seeing how uncomfortable they were getting back into a prop plane and then dealing with VFR and the GA side of the house. I for one had never looked at a VFR chart and all the info that can be gleaned from it. I learned a ton doing the VFR and GA flying.
For my non military GA side of the house - I got my ATP. It was classic. Three flights in a Dutchess. First two with a young kid about 23 or so. Flew for about 3 hrs total. Talk about being out of my comfort zone. Three power levers on each engine, crazy dials, VOR again, outer marker beacons, radios, etc. Go ahead, feather the prop - how come the engine is stopped and the prop isn't moving? Ah yes, piston engine not a turbine. Then I went for the check flight. About 30 sec after takeoff I was on the visor thing, working some crazy instrument scan, shooting a VOR on some whacked out approach. It was brutal. Thankfully the instructor got giddy when I paid him $1800 in cash and gave me a mercy qual. As my buddy said after he got his ATP here - you are a fool to take that out IFR even though you just got the ATP.
02-17-2009 | 06:50 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
"Abeam with gear" is probably what throws them, because that's not a standard AF call. Abeam what - the tower, the numbers, midfield downwind?
After initial, when each acft has pitched out, they make their own calls...but nothing's required until starting the base turn. Then you'll hear: MOONDOG 11, Left base, gear down, full stop 18L. Which is then echoed by MOONDOG 12, 13, 14, etc. when they each start their base turn.
Our call:
Raider 51, abeam, gear, full stop.
Raider 52 gear
Raider 53 gear
Raider 54 gear
So...back to the thread then.....I can't wait to get back to GA flying. I've missed it. I'm sure there will be a lot to re-learn; but I hope my experience with make that transition a lot easier and I'm sure that my SA will be a notch or two higher. I've got no problem listening to a CFI if the person knows what they are talking about and can teach it to me effectively.
USMCFLYR
02-17-2009 | 07:50 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 818
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From: FDX 767 FO
This is OPS normal for the students going through advanced down here. We are in and out of most fields in south Texas. We specifically look for fields that the studs haven't seen before. Proper CTAF calls and deconfliction with GA aircraft are graded. We train USN P-3/P-8, E2/C2, USAF/USCG Herc and USCG Falcon pilots. Not to sound cocky but I doubt a freshly winged student or IP from down here would have any of the trouble listed by the OP. As stated before, it is definitely community dependent.
02-18-2009 | 02:39 PM
#55
Thread Starter
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
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From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Very interesting, I thank you all. I am now wiser for the experience and your advice..
Also, no takers on the Light Sport thing? Probably best for a different thread.
Best,
Also, no takers on the Light Sport thing? Probably best for a different thread.
Best,
02-19-2009 | 07:03 AM
#56
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 47
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From: Herk
This is OPS normal for the students going through advanced down here. We are in and out of most fields in south Texas. We specifically look for fields that the studs haven't seen before. Proper CTAF calls and deconfliction with GA aircraft are graded. We train USN P-3/P-8, E2/C2, USAF/USCG Herc and USCG Falcon pilots. Not to sound cocky but I doubt a freshly winged student or IP from down here would have any of the trouble listed by the OP. As stated before, it is definitely community dependent.
02-19-2009 | 07:46 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 354
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From: Desert Poolie
This is OPS normal for the students going through advanced down here. We are in and out of most fields in south Texas. We specifically look for fields that the studs haven't seen before. Proper CTAF calls and deconfliction with GA aircraft are graded. We train USN P-3/P-8, E2/C2, USAF/USCG Herc and USCG Falcon pilots. Not to sound cocky but I doubt a freshly winged student or IP from down here would have any of the trouble listed by the OP. As stated before, it is definitely community dependent.
02-22-2009 | 12:16 PM
#58
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 699
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From: 757/767 Capt
Block 30,
Most of the previous posters hit the nail on the head, however one asect of this conversation that is hard to explain to non-mil pilots is the "Mission" I'm positive given enough time any pilot can take-off and land an F-16 C-130 or C-17, however, and this is the part most civilians can't understand, is the military takes it for granted a pilot can take-off, land or fly an IFR approach to minimums, little emphisis is placed on these skills sets, matter of fact after flying 6+ hours in formation, the CAT II approach was easy, not bragging, just trying to explain. What matters to the military and sets the mil pilot apart is accomplishing the mission, whether that be dropping bombs, paratroopers, or shooting down another jet..You would be amazed at how much work, coordination and planning goes into even the most standard missions. add to the mix the possibility of people shooting at you, low-level ops, flying on NVG's, weather, Maintanance issues and the complexity and workload really ramps up. For example as a Airdrop guy, if your leading a 6-ship and the 3rd jet breaks what do you do?? You'll have about ten minutes to figure out a plan and execute it. If you delay the mission to fix it, but if you do the troops on the ground will be waiting, exposed to the enemy for however long you've delayed the mission. Or you can scrub #3 out of the mission but the gunners who will operate the artillery thats on #2 are on #3 so The artillery becomes useless cargo...or if weather causes you to deviate around a system you may miss your rendevous time with the KC-135 tankers, that will pass the fuel to you so you can complete the mission, so do you penetrate a small sytsem and stay on time?? if you do you must send the formation into a different formation in order to penetrate the weather....yada yada yada, as you can see issues escalate and decisions have to be made quickly and be sound...as you can see taking off, and landing are in consequential in the big scheme of things...compound this times 3 to a single seat guy, and you may begin to see the point. There were alot of Civ pilots in my UPT class with hundreds of hours that washed out because they didn'y multi-task, and prioritize as well as others.
Most of the previous posters hit the nail on the head, however one asect of this conversation that is hard to explain to non-mil pilots is the "Mission" I'm positive given enough time any pilot can take-off and land an F-16 C-130 or C-17, however, and this is the part most civilians can't understand, is the military takes it for granted a pilot can take-off, land or fly an IFR approach to minimums, little emphisis is placed on these skills sets, matter of fact after flying 6+ hours in formation, the CAT II approach was easy, not bragging, just trying to explain. What matters to the military and sets the mil pilot apart is accomplishing the mission, whether that be dropping bombs, paratroopers, or shooting down another jet..You would be amazed at how much work, coordination and planning goes into even the most standard missions. add to the mix the possibility of people shooting at you, low-level ops, flying on NVG's, weather, Maintanance issues and the complexity and workload really ramps up. For example as a Airdrop guy, if your leading a 6-ship and the 3rd jet breaks what do you do?? You'll have about ten minutes to figure out a plan and execute it. If you delay the mission to fix it, but if you do the troops on the ground will be waiting, exposed to the enemy for however long you've delayed the mission. Or you can scrub #3 out of the mission but the gunners who will operate the artillery thats on #2 are on #3 so The artillery becomes useless cargo...or if weather causes you to deviate around a system you may miss your rendevous time with the KC-135 tankers, that will pass the fuel to you so you can complete the mission, so do you penetrate a small sytsem and stay on time?? if you do you must send the formation into a different formation in order to penetrate the weather....yada yada yada, as you can see issues escalate and decisions have to be made quickly and be sound...as you can see taking off, and landing are in consequential in the big scheme of things...compound this times 3 to a single seat guy, and you may begin to see the point. There were alot of Civ pilots in my UPT class with hundreds of hours that washed out because they didn'y multi-task, and prioritize as well as others.
02-23-2009 | 03:53 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 694
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From: Walmart Greeter
Block 30,
Most of the previous posters hit the nail on the head, however one asect of this conversation that is hard to explain to non-mil pilots is the "Mission" I'm positive given enough time any pilot can take-off and land an F-16 C-130 or C-17, however, and this is the part most civilians can't understand, is the military takes it for granted a pilot can take-off, land or fly an IFR approach to minimums, little emphisis is placed on these skills sets, matter of fact after flying 6+ hours in formation, the CAT II approach was easy, not bragging, just trying to explain. What matters to the military and sets the mil pilot apart is accomplishing the mission, whether that be dropping bombs, paratroopers, or shooting down another jet..You would be amazed at how much work, coordination and planning goes into even the most standard missions. add to the mix the possibility of people shooting at you, low-level ops, flying on NVG's, weather, Maintanance issues and the complexity and workload really ramps up. For example as a Airdrop guy, if your leading a 6-ship and the 3rd jet breaks what do you do?? You'll have about ten minutes to figure out a plan and execute it. If you delay the mission to fix it, but if you do the troops on the ground will be waiting, exposed to the enemy for however long you've delayed the mission. Or you can scrub #3 out of the mission but the gunners who will operate the artillery thats on #2 are on #3 so The artillery becomes useless cargo...or if weather causes you to deviate around a system you may miss your rendevous time with the KC-135 tankers, that will pass the fuel to you so you can complete the mission, so do you penetrate a small sytsem and stay on time?? if you do you must send the formation into a different formation in order to penetrate the weather....yada yada yada, as you can see issues escalate and decisions have to be made quickly and be sound...as you can see taking off, and landing are in consequential in the big scheme of things...compound this times 3 to a single seat guy, and you may begin to see the point. There were alot of Civ pilots in my UPT class with hundreds of hours that washed out because they didn'y multi-task, and prioritize as well as others.
Most of the previous posters hit the nail on the head, however one asect of this conversation that is hard to explain to non-mil pilots is the "Mission" I'm positive given enough time any pilot can take-off and land an F-16 C-130 or C-17, however, and this is the part most civilians can't understand, is the military takes it for granted a pilot can take-off, land or fly an IFR approach to minimums, little emphisis is placed on these skills sets, matter of fact after flying 6+ hours in formation, the CAT II approach was easy, not bragging, just trying to explain. What matters to the military and sets the mil pilot apart is accomplishing the mission, whether that be dropping bombs, paratroopers, or shooting down another jet..You would be amazed at how much work, coordination and planning goes into even the most standard missions. add to the mix the possibility of people shooting at you, low-level ops, flying on NVG's, weather, Maintanance issues and the complexity and workload really ramps up. For example as a Airdrop guy, if your leading a 6-ship and the 3rd jet breaks what do you do?? You'll have about ten minutes to figure out a plan and execute it. If you delay the mission to fix it, but if you do the troops on the ground will be waiting, exposed to the enemy for however long you've delayed the mission. Or you can scrub #3 out of the mission but the gunners who will operate the artillery thats on #2 are on #3 so The artillery becomes useless cargo...or if weather causes you to deviate around a system you may miss your rendevous time with the KC-135 tankers, that will pass the fuel to you so you can complete the mission, so do you penetrate a small sytsem and stay on time?? if you do you must send the formation into a different formation in order to penetrate the weather....yada yada yada, as you can see issues escalate and decisions have to be made quickly and be sound...as you can see taking off, and landing are in consequential in the big scheme of things...compound this times 3 to a single seat guy, and you may begin to see the point. There were alot of Civ pilots in my UPT class with hundreds of hours that washed out because they didn'y multi-task, and prioritize as well as others.
Pretty solid post. As we say....taking off and landing, its just ADMIN!
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