Military pilots flying as civilians
02-23-2009 | 05:15 PM
#61
Thread Starter
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Block 30,
Most of the previous posters hit the nail on the head, however one asect of this conversation that is hard to explain to non-mil pilots is the "Mission" I'm positive given enough time any pilot can take-off and land an F-16 C-130 or C-17, however, and this is the part most civilians can't understand, is the military takes it for granted a pilot can take-off, land or fly an IFR approach to minimums, little emphisis is placed on these skills sets, matter of fact after flying 6+ hours in formation, the CAT II approach was easy, not bragging, just trying to explain. What matters to the military and sets the mil pilot apart is accomplishing the mission, whether that be dropping bombs, paratroopers, or shooting down another jet..You would be amazed at how much work, coordination and planning goes into even the most standard missions. add to the mix the possibility of people shooting at you, low-level ops, flying on NVG's, weather, Maintanance issues and the complexity and workload really ramps up. For example as a Airdrop guy, if your leading a 6-ship and the 3rd jet breaks what do you do?? You'll have about ten minutes to figure out a plan and execute it. If you delay the mission to fix it, but if you do the troops on the ground will be waiting, exposed to the enemy for however long you've delayed the mission. Or you can scrub #3 out of the mission but the gunners who will operate the artillery thats on #2 are on #3 so The artillery becomes useless cargo...or if weather causes you to deviate around a system you may miss your rendevous time with the KC-135 tankers, that will pass the fuel to you so you can complete the mission, so do you penetrate a small sytsem and stay on time?? if you do you must send the formation into a different formation in order to penetrate the weather....yada yada yada, as you can see issues escalate and decisions have to be made quickly and be sound...as you can see taking off, and landing are in consequential in the big scheme of things...compound this times 3 to a single seat guy, and you may begin to see the point. There were alot of Civ pilots in my UPT class with hundreds of hours that washed out because they didn'y multi-task, and prioritize as well as others.
Most of the previous posters hit the nail on the head, however one asect of this conversation that is hard to explain to non-mil pilots is the "Mission" I'm positive given enough time any pilot can take-off and land an F-16 C-130 or C-17, however, and this is the part most civilians can't understand, is the military takes it for granted a pilot can take-off, land or fly an IFR approach to minimums, little emphisis is placed on these skills sets, matter of fact after flying 6+ hours in formation, the CAT II approach was easy, not bragging, just trying to explain. What matters to the military and sets the mil pilot apart is accomplishing the mission, whether that be dropping bombs, paratroopers, or shooting down another jet..You would be amazed at how much work, coordination and planning goes into even the most standard missions. add to the mix the possibility of people shooting at you, low-level ops, flying on NVG's, weather, Maintanance issues and the complexity and workload really ramps up. For example as a Airdrop guy, if your leading a 6-ship and the 3rd jet breaks what do you do?? You'll have about ten minutes to figure out a plan and execute it. If you delay the mission to fix it, but if you do the troops on the ground will be waiting, exposed to the enemy for however long you've delayed the mission. Or you can scrub #3 out of the mission but the gunners who will operate the artillery thats on #2 are on #3 so The artillery becomes useless cargo...or if weather causes you to deviate around a system you may miss your rendevous time with the KC-135 tankers, that will pass the fuel to you so you can complete the mission, so do you penetrate a small sytsem and stay on time?? if you do you must send the formation into a different formation in order to penetrate the weather....yada yada yada, as you can see issues escalate and decisions have to be made quickly and be sound...as you can see taking off, and landing are in consequential in the big scheme of things...compound this times 3 to a single seat guy, and you may begin to see the point. There were alot of Civ pilots in my UPT class with hundreds of hours that washed out because they didn'y multi-task, and prioritize as well as others.
Believe me, I respect what you do, and let me say again that I wouldn't be able to saddle up and keep up with you all. I turn wrenches on the F-16 (Block 30 [hence my screen name]) which also helps me understand what it is that sets you apart.
You just listed a bunch of reasons why military pilots are awesome, and indeed you are. Myself and the aforementioned checkout flight instructor both had a preconceived notion of this very high ability, and shame on us, we overlooked some of the "basics" and to be fair, I really think this gentleman did, too.
Before I get out, I will say this; I respect military pilots, as I have now explained ad nauseum. As far as flying the weather, I really listen to the freight dogs. When they talk, I listen. They do their job year round, in the t-storms, in the ice, in the mountains, single pilot, in pistons with just enough performance to keep them right square in the thick of the weather. From where I sit, these pilots seldom get the credit they deserve.
Of course, I could say that about flight instructors, but that would be a little biased
Best,
02-24-2009 | 10:51 AM
#62
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 699
Likes: 5
From: 757/767 Capt
Block 30
Thanks, but don't sell yourself short...you can do everything any other mil pilot does, maybe better, you just don't know until you've tried. Many current mil pilots were Mx and civilian pilots in prior lives..I'm sure given the opportunity you can end up sitting in the pointy end of an F-22
Good luck in your aviation endevours
Vito
Thanks, but don't sell yourself short...you can do everything any other mil pilot does, maybe better, you just don't know until you've tried. Many current mil pilots were Mx and civilian pilots in prior lives..I'm sure given the opportunity you can end up sitting in the pointy end of an F-22
Good luck in your aviation endevours
Vito
02-24-2009 | 12:54 PM
#63
Thread Starter
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Vito, thanks much,
With what I said about weather flying, I would be curious to talk to our pilots about how they do it. I know there aren't any boots or weeping wings on the F-16, so I'd be curious. I also remember a time when one of the AIM9s got a little chewed up from hail. From what little I have talked to them they like to talk about their missions and how their UPT training was. Not much about weather a'tall, but still interesting stuff.
I remember reading an article about Mohawk pilots back in Vietnam flying in some bad weather over hostile airspace. That would be the kind of duty that takes a few years off your life from the stress I'd imagine.
With what I said about weather flying, I would be curious to talk to our pilots about how they do it. I know there aren't any boots or weeping wings on the F-16, so I'd be curious. I also remember a time when one of the AIM9s got a little chewed up from hail. From what little I have talked to them they like to talk about their missions and how their UPT training was. Not much about weather a'tall, but still interesting stuff.
I remember reading an article about Mohawk pilots back in Vietnam flying in some bad weather over hostile airspace. That would be the kind of duty that takes a few years off your life from the stress I'd imagine.
02-24-2009 | 01:19 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Block 30
Thanks, but don't sell yourself short...you can do everything any other mil pilot does, maybe better, you just don't know until you've tried. Many current mil pilots were Mx and civilian pilots in prior lives..I'm sure given the opportunity you can end up sitting in the pointy end of an F-22
Good luck in your aviation endevours
Vito
Thanks, but don't sell yourself short...you can do everything any other mil pilot does, maybe better, you just don't know until you've tried. Many current mil pilots were Mx and civilian pilots in prior lives..I'm sure given the opportunity you can end up sitting in the pointy end of an F-22
Good luck in your aviation endevours
Vito
I appreciate what your saying about not selling yourself (or oneself) short but at the same time - not everybody can fly in the military and not everyone can fly fighters. usually it doesn't have anything to do with the actually FLYING part - especially the "admin" as someone mentioned before - the takeoff and landing and the time spent to and from the working area for example (flying from point A to point B) matter of fact - I've always found it pretty impressive that our students solo the airplane after only 4 flights. They then spend the next 9 months (some up to a year or more) learning how to EMPLOY the aircraft as a weapons system.
In the USN and USMC inparticular it can even come down to "admin" I've seen pilots who can fly from A to B just fine. Those same people could even fly and fight the aircraft. they just couldn't land it behind an aircraft carrier in a safe and predictable manner.
Finally....it is just a different world. In my limited experience - I've seen other pilots come into military flying and not be able to make it; again - not because of the flying skills but what happens between points A and B. So far - I've not come across those who did not make it in the civilian world.
Block30 -
In my community we try to avoid weather as much as possible. My airplane is not well equipped to handle icing for instance and even my rules and regs dictate that I not fly in known icing conditions. I have some anti-ice protection but no de-ice protection. Usually I am not alone - anywhere from 1 other aircraft to 5 other aircraft in my formation. can we fly together like that/ Yes. Does it increase risk? yes - therefore we try to avoid it if possible. additionally - many of our missions can not be performed in certain wx conditions so the purpose of the training mission in my case is defeated - and nothing that I do is "mission critical"
USMCFLYR
02-24-2009 | 02:18 PM
#65
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 699
Likes: 5
From: 757/767 Capt
USMCFLYR,
Good point, I'll tell you a story that had a big impact on me. I was Flying a low-level sortie in the T-38, I did meticulous mission planning, and flew an awesome flight, hit all my checkpoints on time, IDed all of them and watered the IP's eyes until I exited the low-level route and didn't know which way to turn??? The IP took the jet and reefed it into a hard turn towards the Tacan. I felt like an idiot!! I had planned the low-level route but gave little to no thought about exiting and RTB...I learned a hard lesson that day, plan the ENTIRE MISSION...later in my career, and still to this day You must not only plan for the mission but all contingincies as well, I find this is a trait posessed by the better pilots I've flown with.
Good point, I'll tell you a story that had a big impact on me. I was Flying a low-level sortie in the T-38, I did meticulous mission planning, and flew an awesome flight, hit all my checkpoints on time, IDed all of them and watered the IP's eyes until I exited the low-level route and didn't know which way to turn??? The IP took the jet and reefed it into a hard turn towards the Tacan. I felt like an idiot!! I had planned the low-level route but gave little to no thought about exiting and RTB...I learned a hard lesson that day, plan the ENTIRE MISSION...later in my career, and still to this day You must not only plan for the mission but all contingincies as well, I find this is a trait posessed by the better pilots I've flown with.
02-24-2009 | 02:22 PM
#66
Thread Starter
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
I remember nearly being nailed to a proverbial cross for allowing a student to be with me on the controls for takeoff and landing on the second flight. Even though the Jepp and Gleim syllabus call for it (go figure).
How do you guys work a four flight solo?
02-24-2009 | 02:25 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
USMCFLYR,
Good point, I'll tell you a story that had a big impact on me. I was Flying a low-level sortie in the T-38, I did meticulous mission planning, and flew an awesome flight, hit all my checkpoints on time, IDed all of them and watered the IP's eyes until I exited the low-level route and didn't know which way to turn??? The IP took the jet and reefed it into a hard turn towards the Tacan. I felt like an idiot!! I had planned the low-level route but gave little to no thought about exiting and RTB...I learned a hard lesson that day, plan the ENTIRE MISSION...later in my career, and still to this day You must not only plan for the mission but all contingincies as well, I find this is a trait posessed by the better pilots I've flown with.
Good point, I'll tell you a story that had a big impact on me. I was Flying a low-level sortie in the T-38, I did meticulous mission planning, and flew an awesome flight, hit all my checkpoints on time, IDed all of them and watered the IP's eyes until I exited the low-level route and didn't know which way to turn??? The IP took the jet and reefed it into a hard turn towards the Tacan. I felt like an idiot!! I had planned the low-level route but gave little to no thought about exiting and RTB...I learned a hard lesson that day, plan the ENTIRE MISSION...later in my career, and still to this day You must not only plan for the mission but all contingincies as well, I find this is a trait posessed by the better pilots I've flown with.
). He comes off the last point and turns 90 left to go home (fairly fuel critical) when home base is a wypt away and 90 right! It took about 3-4 calls to get him turned back around 180 and actually headed home. i must say that i was a little surprised by his loss of SA inflight and not following the brief which had clearly shown that we would be a right turn off the last point to head home.USMCFLYR
02-24-2009 | 02:38 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
How do you guys work a four flight solo?
1st flt - they do all ground ops and takeoff, fly to the area, do a series of aircraft handling drills, see the working area and the course rules to our promary divert, and then back for multiple practice carrier landings.
2nd/3rd flt - instrument round robins. All grd ops, t/o and ldg, TCN approaches and GCIs (usually PARs)
4th flt - safe for solo checkride. grd ops, t/o, enroute procedures, more advance aircraft handling, divert fam (if not done on 1st flt) and then back to the field for circuit landings.
Basically we need to see that they can start up the plane, do all the grd ops, get themselves out to and back from the area following all the rules/regs, and back into the landing pattern and then show safe and controlled passes and landings.
Now comes the FUN part
USMCFLYR
02-24-2009 | 02:42 PM
#69
Thread Starter
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
