T-tail

Duke,
Glad to see where your loyalties are!
It is true the Guard is not what it used to be, but neither is the airline business. The Guard does have much larger committments now, I have firsthand knowledge. I understand wanting to retire in a particular area, but don't limit your job search based on geography. Commuting from Salt Lake would be relatively easy, since Delta has a hub there for now. But regional airlines are the only employment opportunites. You may want to check on the Depot jobs available at Hill. Please understand that I am not trying to sell the guard, I just want you to look at all options. Remember, "It's a Job, not an Adventure"

Raidr17

Duke,
I am nearly in the same situation you are. 10 years active in Marines flying herks and am getting out. I am looking for new challenges on the outside, and I have done everything I wanted to do as a O-3 in this service, those are my reasons for leaving.
The thing that gets me about leaving though, is that I will be on the sidelines when another 9/11 happens and my brothers go off to war. I am going to stay reserves, but am torn between going for "the show" with the airlines or just settling down and doing engineer work in the realm of UAVs.
For now I am pushing both paths, and when I get home from this 7 month deployment that I am currently on decide with my wife what the right choice will be.
Can anyone answer which company excels in quality of life for its people? I have seen NetJets alot on thie website wrt QOL, what about CAL and SWA?

Raidr

Bigflya

My quick 02cents. I just got out after almost 12 yrs of AD in the Navy. I was fortunate to get a sep bonus since I was two times FOS. It is definately tough to get that dream job. SWA is no longer interviewing without the 737 type again. According to many friends at FDX, they have a stack of guys that have done the "meet n greet" and are awaiting interviews so that window may be closed until after the Xmas pkg rush. At UPS you need to have a LOR from a very senior CAPT to get a look. CAL is suppsed to be interviewing again at the end of the summer but definately get someone to walk in your app to their Asst Cheif Pilot. I would not even consider JB right now with them selling planes and only hiring to the 190 right now if at all. Airtran's a possibility if you can get a LOR. I'm not here to discourage but giving the facts. I got a SelRes gig and it has been great for me as that is my only job and I work when I want. I most highly rec that you do it, at least initially. You may not have an airline job when you get out yet. I have over 2500 hrs in 707's, DC-9's, BE-400's etc and have only been called by Champion Air. It is good that the reserves have a high tempo because that means that you can work and get paid. The $$ is similiar to AD but a little less and you obviuosly only get paid when you work. I highly rec drilling in a unit where you live so you can work regularly. Many units will not pick up guys who do not live local because they get tired of commuting, cannot commit to much work, etc and eventaully quit sooner. Best of Luck

rusty737

Raidr,

I retired from the USMC last July when I was hired by CAL. I finished training in Oct 05 and have been flying a line since. Cal seems to be doing well at the present time and most Cpts I fly with seem happy. The hiring should start back to 60 a month in Sept and continue through next summer. Having spent 21 years in the USMC this is really a cush job. I could not be happier.
The atmosphere here is great.

I am on the 737 and expect to upgrade to Capt within 3 years. I have the opportunity to go to the 757/767 (FO) at the next bid next Sept if I choose. I commute to Newark from Maryland (just south of BWI) 4 imes a month for 3 and 4 day trips. I fly an average of 12-15 days a month. My situation is a little differnt from yours in that I have an active duty retirement check every month. One downside of the job is the small paycheck. The money is not good, especially the first year but this is standard at every airline. Upgrading to Capt is the brass ring, a four year capt is aprox $140 an hour. Not what it use to be but still not bad for doing something you love to do. I am still in my honeymoon phase but I can honestly say I could not imagine making a living any other way now. The planes are new and well maintained. I have never been on a cancelled flight for maintenance reasons.

The only other down side of this job I can think about is the 3 hour commute (drive) to Newark (but I only do it 4 times a month), and being away from home aprox 10 nights a month. I have never flown for any other commercial carrier so my whole experience is CAL but I can honestly say I have never been happier. Hope this helps.

BTW there are a lot of bitter and unhappy people that post on this forum. I am sure they have their reasons to be negative but don't let them convince you that a civilian aviation career is terrible, it's not. If CAL falls apart tomorrow I will still be glad I had the opportunity to fly for them and then I will move on to something else. Bottom line, I am as happy as I could be here at CAL.

Rusty737

lawless1

Duke,
I am pilot in the IDANG in Boise. After over 11 years AD, I left, guard bummed for a couple of years and have recently been hired by a Memphis based air cargo outfit. The 190 FS has a few guys who work for FedEx, so if you can find it to Boise, enjoy the Idaho lifestyle and get the boys here to give you recommendations for FedEx, life could definitely take a turn for you. Nothing is guaranteed, nothing. Not the Air Force, not the airlines, not tomorrow. I know it is a cliche, but life is a journey. I enjoyed my Active Duty time, but have also enjoyed my guard time, and look forward to flying purple jets full of boxes. My wife and kids have become a much greater part of my life since I left AD. Also, the 190th does not have a heavy deployment schedule. Call some of your contacts and ask them. Incidently, I was the guy who received the remains of our (IDANG) ASOS guy from Kuwait at Dover one cold night in the spring of 2003. I think you probably knew him. Good luck with your decisions.

Coast

shackone

Good topic with some very accurate insights. I retired from a AF fighter career and have since retired at 60 from a legacy carrier. I can only add a couple of thoughts.

First and foremost, a person has to ask himself what really makes him tick? What is it that he really wants to do? Where are his priorities?

Obviously, there are many answers to these questions...probably one for each of us...so coming up with just one pat answer to your question is difficult.

I found airline life to be dull and and to a certain extent, unrewarding. Upgrading to Captain helped, but it still wasn't quite the same. I enjoyed the challenge of the AF...the competition. There is no competition in an airline cockpit, so if that aspect of a job is important, then a person ought to think twice.

While in the AF, I thought the airline business was much like driving a bus. In a sense it is. There are very few opportunities for individualism in the airlines, and so if this is part of your personality, then again think twice.

Also, as another poster so accurately put it, don't expect the civilian aviation world to be managed better than the military. To the contrary, it is even more of a mess...and to make matters worse, unlike the military, there is little accountability. If someone has ever considered military HHQ to be unconcerned or out of touch with what's happening 'in the trenches', then stand by for a laugh when you see how a major corporation acts!!

Another aspect that might be of interest to spouses is that the sense of tight community which many of us enjoyed in the military is somewhat absent in the airline business. Your choice of home location will become an issue. It's a lucky airline pilot who likes living where he is domiciled (and whose family feels the same way). You will hear much about commuting...a large percentage of airline pilots do. I did as well for a while. Few of us liked it, and for some it can become a major negative in life.

Spouses therefore should be prepared for a number of changes. For the first years, you'll see a significant cut in pay. If the spouse doesn't work outside the home, this can be a real eye-opener. With the absence of the military 'family', some may find a real sense of being alone...and with hubby being gone about 15 days a month, this isn't something to be marginalized. After I retired from the AF, I figured I saw about 50% of my son's growing up years.

For certain, once a pilot gains a little seniority, he can often work his monthly schedule to be home when those important dates come along...but be prepared to enjoy a few Xmas mornings in some layover hotel!! And here's the dig! Every time a pilot either upgrades to a new aircraft or changes his seat position, he often takes a big hit in relative seniority! That's why it's not unusual to see some folks turning down bids in order to retain seniority and thereby keep their ability to shape the quality of life.

That's the magic word...'quality of life'. Professionally or personally, that's where the decision should be made. Don't just look at the money...for one thing, the glory days are dead and gone and not likely to rebound anytime soon. Figure out what's really important...and then go that way.

Good luck!

MalteseX

Yeah I know wha you mean... I was due to go out on Friday.... I told my wife I dropped the trip. The whistling stopped and I got a blank Oh...... great; yeah really great. No, really I'm glad you will be here. (as her nose grows).

MalteseX

Advanced instrument school.... good.... IP good Masters good ... those all help on a resume. But you really need to find guys you've flown with......that is what gets your resume to the top. You also can go to job fairs and meet airline recruiters.....you'll probably see squadron mates there.

As for pay... You will make more in the AF if you are at the 10 year point. Believe me, I've been there. You will continue to make quite a bit more money for the next 6 to 8 years in the AF. At that time you are 2 years from retirement. Unless you are really lucky and get on with SWA FedEx or UPS this year or next year, your pay will be higher staying in..... remember, most of the legacy airlines took massive pay cuts and many guys are on furlough.........but you have to consider all QOL issues besides pay--that "cost" of staying in is up to your own judgement.

You say you will make more at SWA after the 6 year point or so..... that may be correct, but remember to add the differences between AF pay and airline pay during years 1 through 6. It will take 1 or 2 more years to make up the "difference" in cumulative pay.... taking you to year 18....and man that's close to making 40K per year for life and health care etc.....

MalteseX

I did just what you are dreading. I just retired this past year at 20 years and 1 day ( I had to stay the extra day due to having to stay to the end of the month). I went through what you are going through now. I didn't die of a heart attack; It's funny that if you go to ACSC, it will be a break; you will be able to golf everyday. Then a staff job; then back to flying to finish it out. It can work....and the retirement benefits are great. So is flying for a major. At 42 I work only 12 days or so a month. 40K per year in addition to just getting off 1st year pay works out great (plus all the money I saved for the last 7 years or so).

I'd recommend staying ..... your situation mirrors mine; and I hated every minute of it... just kidding (it was a love/hate)... In fact your post sounded like a conversation I had 7 years ago; heck it was almost a transcript if it were taped.

You have to do what's best for you. It worked out great for me to stay in ....

Just my .02.....

shackone

Duke...I would advise speaking softly about sitting in that lawndart...it's pretty much on the top of the heap when it comes to assignments...my guess is that some of the heavy guys here wonder what you are talking about.

I have no idea what the assignment process is like these days. In my time, I was a firm believer in getting involved in shaping my assignments. I found MPC (or whatever its called these days) or the assignments guys at Langley to be pretty receptive to input. Forget the Form 90...a few well placed phone calls (and repeated call backs) can do wonders. I had a couple of good deal assignments (F-4s at Soesterberg, for example), and I was often asked who I knew. The answer was nobody...I just kept calling the guy who was working my assignment until I think he gave me what I wanted out of exasperation!!

So, get involved. The worst thing they can say is 'No'. Find out where the openings are in the area that you want and then work those specifically.

Overall, I agree 100% with Maltese...finish it out. Unless you are really fortunate, these days it's tough to get on with a 'major'...your only options now are CAL and SWA. In both, you will be junior for quite a while, gone a lot, and will find the pay cut to be amazing. Depending on your personality, you may find an airline cockpit to be somewhat of a letdown after being on the pointy end for some years. Betting beers on a landing is not quite the same as betting quarters on the range.

I realize this is a tough decision, so take a moment to weigh ALL of the consequences. You'll have to live with them. Back in the late 70s, my best friend from my F-4 days got out to pursue that 'better deal' on the outside. That 'better deal' didn't pan out, and several years later he was back, looking to get back in. I helped him get assigned to where I was...he came back somewhat bitter and disillusioned...and now four years behind in DOR. He was still a Capt while we all were Majors. He had been a top notch guy before, and he proved to still be...but his sense of bitterness never left him about having made that one really bad decision.