rickair7777

Not sure what the point of the original question was, but if someone was thinking of logging NAV PIC towards airline requirements...don't.

Unless you are pilot rated in the airplane, and current don't log it for civilian employment purposes. And that includes a Nav/WSO/FO who happens to hold a commercial ticket but is only backseat rated in the military bird. Airlines are smarter than that.

But has anyone successfully logged S-3 right seat time? They have a stick and do some flying, but I'm not quite sure they are considered pilot rated in that thing...

navigatro

I log all my stick time, but it is the don't ask, don't tell kind.

jeff122670

If i am the sole manipulator of the controls, i am logging the time (F-15E in my case and yes i have a multi engine rating)

just like if i fly a twin something else and am the sole manipulator of the controls, i will log the time too.

I am sure there are many interperations to this, but if i am flying the aircraft, i am flying the aircraft...if i am riding in the aircraft, i am not going to log PIC time.

WhistlePig

They got an instrument rating just like the pilots but could not log PIC. But, they had to fly during seat changes during FCLP's (or if the pilot had to take care of physiological need that the piddle pack was not designed for!) Some were pretty good sticks too.

navigatro

Well Jeffy, airlines look at PIC as "signing for the jet" and not "sole manipulator".

you can log it any way you want in your personal logbook, but be careful when filling out an airline app.

thurberm

^ ^ ^

Basically, this. Short answer: No. They log primary time in their respective crew position. Leaving the service and attempting to present their navigator primary time as "PIC" time like ex-military pilots can (and do) is a quick way to get tossed out of an interview for trying to inflate their time.

Long answer: The USAF is my frame of reference. In the USAF world, one logs "pimary," "secondary," or "other" time in conjunction with their crew position. Generally, only one person logs primary time in any given crew position, while the other(s) log secondary or other. If more than one of the same crew position is required by the flight manual to perform primary duties at the same time (i.e., two navigators on an aircraft), then both may log primary time.

These flight time logging categories are totally separate from who is designated on the flight orders as "Aircraft Commander" and actually is in command of and "signing for the aircraft." That officer is always a pilot. Navigators are not designated as "aircraft commanders," though in my career I know it's been tried a few times. Being a "Mission Commander," "Mission Crew Commander," or some other similarly named crew position does not make one the "Aircraft Commander" and thus in overall command of (and responsible for) the aircraft, mission, and crew.

In the civilian world, while FARs do legally allow logging "hands-on" time as PIC time, it generally isn't done and is not what employers are looking for when you list your PIC time. To any aviation employer, PIC time is time that you actually "signed for the aircraft" as the pilot-in-command. This would equate to being "A-coded" or designated as the "Aircraft Commander" on Air Force flight orders. Since most Air Force pilots don't track when they are actually designated as such, and the AF flight management records don't either, ex-military pilots use their primary time figures from their military records, which is all they can substantiate. This is standard practice and accepted by all civilian employers looking at ex-military pilots.

This isn't much of an issue for single-seat aircraft, where the only time another pilot can be flying with you is in a family model. Much more of an issue in a cargo-type aircraft where a cast of 3, 4, 5 or more pilots may be along for training at any given time. Even in those cases, only one (with rare exception) can be the "Aircraft Commander" whether actually in the seat or not.

Now, if I had it all to do over again, I would have tracked, in a personal logbook, all the flying time I had while designated as "Aircraft Commander" on military flight orders (and kept a copy of every single one along with the corresponding 781). I'd probably be able to document more PIC time than I can by using the primary time method...

Jesse

Airline Apps had a column for "FE/NAV" time on it so I put my Nav time on my application. Other than being listed there it didn't show up under any other totals.

Adlerdriver

YGBSM! Sole manipulator?? You’re an F-15E WSO and you’re logging the occasional stick time that you get when your PILOT is taking a leak as PIC because you have a multi-engine private pilot’s license?
You’re logging the time, why, exactly? What do you think it’s going to do for you?

It’s not like it’s going to be worth anything to anyone who might care. If you put that time you “logged” anywhere official, they’ll laugh at you. You’re talking about a 60,000lb multi-engine jet that requires a 6 month B-course to qualify in (oh, and that’s AFTER you spend a year in UPT getting your PILOT wings). Go pull your bag out of the closet and look at your wings…. Yours are different.

If it were a civilian jet, you’d need a type rating to be able to log time in it. The fact that you have your multi-engine rating is irrelevant.
Thank GOD, I flew the C-model.

I've got news for you....... You're always riding in the aircraft.

CAFB 04-12

This is what I do. What I didn't do was keep a copy of the flight authorization...just 781s.

thurberm

Smart, in my opinion. I don't remember the 781s showing which pilot is in command, only crew posititions--is that still true? I know a few things have changed in the year since I retired.

I'd consider keeping the flight orders too, if the 781s will only show type of time and crew position. If in an interview, the primary time you claim on your resume differs from your final career flight summary, you should be prepared to show them how you legitimately arrived at that figure--especially if it's a higher number than they think it should be. Since most ex-mil guys just go with what's on the summary, they'll probably be expecting that and highly interested in how you figured your time. If you can't show with documentation that you were actually signing for the aircraft and not just logging "hands-on" PIC time, could be problematic.

I know if I was interviewing you and you showed me 781s and flight orders to document higher PIC time than your flight summary showed, I'd think you were pretty savvy for looking that far ahead. Just sayin'...