E2CMaster

I've had problems with DONCAFF/whoever the security clowns are because my mother's family is from Latvia, which was the Latvian SSR when she was born (they were in exile).. I can only imagine the fun he must have had.

My inlaws are about half Israeli citizens. I can only imagine how much fun that will be at my next security clearance review.

On the upside, my neighbor is somehow convinced my wife is ex-Mossad, and keeps his kids off my lawn now.

Montey

Good afternoon Joe,

I am moving to Ohklahoma for school next year. Before my freshman year in their aviation program, and enlist into the ANG.

In the state of Ohklahoma, the ANG pays for your college/university as one of there benefits for serving; "100% tuition waiver". Once I graduate with all my ratings I could become a CFI for the school (still enlisted) and gain my hours towards the minimums. The school (SouthEastern Ohklahoma State University) has an agreement with American Eagle to hire instructors and guarantee them a job.

Get hired by AE and try to work for a year with the airline. Apply to become an officer within the ANG; hopefully the same unit Ive been enlisted at and go to training. Come back with senority at AE and work at the reserves at the same time.

If I were you, I'd try to enlist at your local ANG base. Try to earn your ratings with loans and get a job instructing afterwards with a school that looks at a lot of hours per month so you'll be busy.

If you were to join the ANG you have to be willing to serve for your country and not use it as a "stepping-stone".

Keep at your degree, a non-aviation major could help as a back up plan. (I am double majoring)

Again, Im just 17 years old so I dont know much. Try asking these questions in "career questions." The threads are very helpful and could give you some more information.

Adlerdriver

Montey,
I don't want to discourage you, so I'm trying to be careful in my response. I’m not saying your plan doesn’t have some merit; however, you may want to get some more opinions. I have a couple of opinions/questions you may want to consider:

Any college aviation program is going to have significant cost associated with it. The ANG is not going to cover all the cost of your aviation training. Maybe you know all the details, but knowing exactly what you will have to pay for such training vs what you can get covered via tuition waiver, GI bill and scholarships will be important.

I think it is safe to say that most of the younger first officers at American Eagle probably hope to work at a major airline someday. Your plan is fine if your ultimate goal is to be senior at American Eagle and stay there. If you eventually want to fly for the military (via ANG or active duty) and work for a major airline, why bother with American Eagle or paying thousands of dollars for ratings you can get for free in UPT?

There are potential pitfalls in trying to succeed in UPT after receiving a significant amount of civilian training and becoming a CFI for the university. The second guy to wash out of my UPT class (after the Army helo pilot) was a civilian trained CFI/CFII with over 3000 hours on mil leave from a regional airline. Frankly, all the time and money you spend getting ratings via the university program is going to be wasted if your plan goes as you say and you attend UPT.

Getting all your ratings, enlisting, getting hired at AE, working for a year or longer, training as an officer and getting selected for UPT all so you can take military leave from AE and return with some seniority seems like a complex plan for not much return. As far as not using the military/ANG as a “stepping stone”, that seems like exactly what you’re trying to do.
Why not pursue a meaningful degree you can use as a backup? Consider ROTC while you’re attending college. If not, enlisting to help pay for school can be a good option and a way to possibly pursue a commission as an ANG officer as well as selection for UPT. If you have other scholarship options, consider those as well, so you can graduate with little debt and be available for officer training ASAP. If you truly don’t want to use the military as a stepping stone, then make officer training and completion of UPT your primary goal. As soon as you’re done with school and the opportunity is available, go to UPT. You’ll spend several years on full time active duty getting all the training competed. You may have the option to get a full time position at your Guard unit after you get back from training. The training you receive will be far superior to anything you can get at a civilian college. Opportunities for civilian aviation jobs will most likely be available at some point in your future, but for now success as a military officer and UPT student should really be your focus if that’s what you want. After you have some experience, you would still have the option to get a job at AE eventually; the only difference is you may not have the extra couple of years of seniority. In the long run, once you’re flying for a major airline – who cares?

Montey

Putting all of that into perspective makes a lot of sense now.

My only problem would be finding the "right" college/university with a ROTC program. Can you go into the ROTC without a scholarship? Could I enlist into the ANG while doing ROTC? Should I find a school in-state? out-of-state?

I live in NJ and don't have the best SAT scores out there.

I want to find a "right" unit that I could enlist at and possibly have a chance in the future to fly. (Like a re-fueling or airlift wing) I just have to do more research I guess. I'm just worried that won't happen..

Thank you again.

Adlerdriver

Lots of info here: U.S. Air Force ROTC - College Scholarships and Careers

I thought you were moving to OK? In-state is usually the way to go. Some types of scholarships have an upper limit on the amount of tuition that will be paid. There can be other benefits to being a resident of the state school you plan to attend. I know in IL, the public schools with AFROTC programs have a waiver for room and board for ROTC cadets.

OK State and U of OK both have AFROTC detachments and there's a bunch of satellite schools in OK that use their programs. Seems like there should be something for you depending on what you're looking for.

Yes, you can join AFROTC without a scholarship. Getting a scholarship is extremely competitive and good grades/good test scores are definitely important. If you were unable to get one before you started, that can be a way to show your commitment and pursue a 2 or 3 year scholarship once you're in the program. Whether you have a scholarship or not, after you complete your sophomore year of college, you will have to make the cut and be selected for field training in the summer. Once you complete that, you will become a "contract cadet" and join the POC (professional officer course) for the final 2 years of college. As a member of the POC, you will incur a military obligation to serve as an officer in the USAF after you graduate and earn your commission.

As far as joining ROTC after you enlist, I'm not sure. Keep in mind that if you enlist in the ANG, they will expect to get something for their money. You'll get thousands in tuition assistance and your basic/specialty training will cost $$. If your only reason for doing it is money and a chance to go to officer training and UPT, that won't be too hard to figure out. Most likely you will have a minimum time to serve out your enlistment before you will be allowed to pursue other career options in the ANG.

OK has a pretty good mix of ANG units. Some states don't have any flying units, while others may only have one. OK has a tanker unit and an F-16 unit.

Enlisting in the ANG is one potential route you should consider but it's not the only one. If you know you want to fly in the military, there are several roads you can take. Those other options (like ROTC, service academy, OTS or AMS) may actually get you into a military cockpit sooner than if you enlist and try once you're allowed.

Montey

I currently live in NJ and was planning to move to OK for school.

Eventually I have to make a choice. ROTC has a commitment so the ANG would be out of the question.

Are there units that hire off the street for officer pilot positions?

I'm confused on what route to take now.

galaxy flyer

Montey et al,

This career is a marathon, not a 100 meter dash. It sounds like everyone wants the short cut direct to B777 captain.

Look at the various paths, think about what you want to do in your 20s; then pursue a path. You can ONLY do one and you won't know how it works out until your 30th birthday.

Yes, ROTC works; ANG units prefer, but not exclusively, in-staters; AFRC is more open to anyone, the penalty being fierce competition. Ten year commitments sound like eternity, but look at the 10-year F/Os at Comair, out of work.

My old unit, while I was the DO sent probably 20 people to UPT-- Out of the state applicants, in-unit enlisted, a B744 F/O, in-unit maintainers, sons of in-unit enlisted; you name it, we sent 'em. Only two didn't come back as pilots. One from Texas (let's just say, our unit was the direct opposite of Texas), visited regularily driving and flying up with his wife just to say hello, insisted he was for us. Enlisted in a Texas unit that didn't want to send guys to UPT; he never let go until the Chief Pilot and I relented, sent to the Wing Commander for a 1-star recommendation. Damned if he didn't excel, top in his class, still a serving officer, now back in Texas. He promised 6 years up North, stuck to it.

I was a standby candidate behind a in-unit enlisted maintenance troop at a time the ANG only required 60 credit-hours of college. He finished the year with less than 60, unit had to fill a slot in weeks--I went. We're still friends, he went the following year.

Everyone's story is unique, make your story your own.

GF

Montey

Will do sir. Thank you for the great advice.

Fatty 5416

Joe,
Go fly fighters or heavies kid. Being on the pointy end of democracy, seeing what Mach 2 looks like and experiencing the squadron camaraderie of a military squadron is everything you'd ever hoped it'd be. The airlines will be there forever, you can only fly grey jets once. The San Francisco ILS is nice but nothing like night traps on the NIMITZ or pushing SEALs out of a C-130.

Sluggo_63

I haven't read the whole thread, but if you live in NJ and are thinking about going to college, just know the if you enlist in the NJ ANG (or AG) you get free tuition to any state school. All tuition paid for... both undergrad and graduate degrees. All you pay for is books and fees. We have had pilots in our unit get their law degrees at Rutgers for free, and also have a Medical Doctor who had her med school paid for by the guard.

It's a great deal, and many of our enlisted and officers take advantage of it. Every state school from the local community college all the way up to Rutgers or TCNJ have tuition waivers for guardsmen and women.

On the flying side, we do hire pilots off the street who have their degrees and at least a PPL. Hiring from within seems to be a little easier route. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

NJ National Guard Free Tuition Guidelines

Edit: I just looked at the Oklahoma website for their tuition waiver program is good, but I think NJ is better (plus you live here and we have a tanker and a fighter unit). No cap in NJ ($4500 per FY in OK), you probably would be considered out of state for a while, and they won't cover the out-of-state part, and like I said before, NJ is undergrad, and graduate programs (I think we're the only state who provide free tuition for graduate degrees). Just look into what you're signing up for before you move half way across the country, when a similar (better?) deal is right here in your backyard. My $0.02

Oklahoma National Guard Free Tuition Guidelines