NetJets new Contract
02-26-2019, 06:41 AM
#732
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by AntiPeter
My experience regarding the new IBI18 from the Phenom:
1. Flying and schedule changes have decreased significantly, allowing for a better QOL on the road.
2. Overtime has gone away, in some cases replaced by FDPP (mostly for night duty). I may not make more money with this new contract because of that.
3. I'm concerned for the future. Once again I think the pilots accepted mediocre short term gains for an agreement which long term will result in a poor QOL with inadequate inflationary adjustments and weaker leverage. Working here 2015-2017 was miserable, all thanks to CBA15. I assume that misery will return because not only are the root causes not fixed, it's not even politically correct that they can be addressed.
4. Ironically, the (apparently) large amount of pilots that weren't pulling their own weight (fatigue, DNIF, write ups, etc.) have actually, in my opinion, destroyed future leverage. Our Union won't negotiate in Section 6 and we have a large group of self serving pilots that are willing to significantly change their behavior for what amounts to a modest increase in "performance" money.
These are cultural issues which can't be fixed.
1. Flying and schedule changes have decreased significantly, allowing for a better QOL on the road.
2. Overtime has gone away, in some cases replaced by FDPP (mostly for night duty). I may not make more money with this new contract because of that.
3. I'm concerned for the future. Once again I think the pilots accepted mediocre short term gains for an agreement which long term will result in a poor QOL with inadequate inflationary adjustments and weaker leverage. Working here 2015-2017 was miserable, all thanks to CBA15. I assume that misery will return because not only are the root causes not fixed, it's not even politically correct that they can be addressed.
4. Ironically, the (apparently) large amount of pilots that weren't pulling their own weight (fatigue, DNIF, write ups, etc.) have actually, in my opinion, destroyed future leverage. Our Union won't negotiate in Section 6 and we have a large group of self serving pilots that are willing to significantly change their behavior for what amounts to a modest increase in "performance" money.
These are cultural issues which can't be fixed.
The pilots that will just lap up whatever management/NJASAP will put in the dog bowl is what is firming decisions for pilots to leave. No job is perfect but there is a large unwillingness to really get change there. Throwing money at the problem and being happy with it, is playing the short game. CBA2015 had way too many yes votes to give the warm and fuzzies about real changes to the future and the IBI further knocked those hopes down IMHO. In a year, the excitement of marginally bigger paychecks will wear off and the group will be miserable again, wondering how it happened.
02-26-2019, 06:45 AM
#733
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 110
An incentive scheme may have been ok if it was paired with rock solid work rules. When I was there overwhelmingly the problem was people not calling in fatigued when they should have, not the other way around. I can't even imagine it now. Over time the Company will do what they always do, make more with less. People will be killing themselves for a few still underpaid extra bucks.
02-26-2019, 06:46 AM
#734
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by Flyfalcons
They did? Last I saw was another 7 upgrades awarded for the month.
I know everyone is itching to upgrade but is creating a falsehood and upgrading unnecessarily really the way to go about it?
02-26-2019, 06:51 AM
#735
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by Finny McCool
An incentive scheme may have been ok if it was paired with rock solid work rules. When I was there overwhelmingly the problem was people not calling in fatigued when they should have, not the other way around. I can't even imagine it now. Over time the Company will do what they always do, make more with less. People will be killing themselves for a few still underpaid extra bucks.
That is a terrifying reality now.
02-26-2019, 07:10 AM
#736
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,063
All I can report on is what I am observing. We still have attrition occuring in both seats, so I don't know whether the upgrades will make us too fat on Captains. The company was extremely fat on Captains during the furlough and managed to get by okay. Additionally, we are headed toward a lot of our pilots reaching the age where the average pilot retires by choice or medical. Combine that with the company's efforts to implement a much-needed mandatory retirement age, we may not see the PIC/SIC ratio become too out of balance.
02-26-2019, 07:34 AM
#737
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Position: Pilot
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by Flyfalcons
All I can report on is what I am observing. We still have attrition occuring in both seats, so I don't know whether the upgrades will make us too fat on Captains. The company was extremely fat on Captains during the furlough and managed to get by okay. Additionally, we are headed toward a lot of our pilots reaching the age where the average pilot retires by choice or medical. Combine that with the company's efforts to implement a much-needed mandatory retirement age, we may not see the PIC/SIC ratio become too out of balance.
are correct. Many SICs deserved PIC pay years ago.
It's interesting how the IBI18 has given pilots considerably different perceptions based on what fleet they are in. I'm eager to read these posts a year from now.
02-26-2019, 10:07 AM
#738
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Bizjet Captain
Posts: 251
Quick couple of questions for you NJA guys and gals:
How many block hours do you do a year, on average, on the small and mid size fleets?
How often do you work close to 14 hour duty days followed by only 10 hours of rest or only slightly more?
How often is it about 12 hours duty/ 12 hours rest?
How often is it significantly better than that (say 8 to 10 hours duty and more than 12 hours rest)?
Trying to compare it to NJE where we have different flight time limitations than you guys.
How many block hours do you do a year, on average, on the small and mid size fleets?
How often do you work close to 14 hour duty days followed by only 10 hours of rest or only slightly more?
How often is it about 12 hours duty/ 12 hours rest?
How often is it significantly better than that (say 8 to 10 hours duty and more than 12 hours rest)?
Trying to compare it to NJE where we have different flight time limitations than you guys.
02-26-2019, 10:42 AM
#739
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Position: Pilot
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by germanaviator
Quick couple of questions for you NJA guys and gals:
How many block hours do you do a year, on average, on the small and mid size fleets?
How often do you work close to 14 hour duty days followed by only 10 hours of rest or only slightly more?
How often is it about 12 hours duty/ 12 hours rest?
How often is it significantly better than that (say 8 to 10 hours duty and more than 12 hours rest)?
Trying to compare it to NJE where we have different flight time limitations than you guys.
How many block hours do you do a year, on average, on the small and mid size fleets?
How often do you work close to 14 hour duty days followed by only 10 hours of rest or only slightly more?
How often is it about 12 hours duty/ 12 hours rest?
How often is it significantly better than that (say 8 to 10 hours duty and more than 12 hours rest)?
Trying to compare it to NJE where we have different flight time limitations than you guys.
350-400 block per year (7/7 or CC60 sched)
Less than 5% of time
60-70% before IBI18
20% before IBI18
02-26-2019, 04:09 PM
#740
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: Retired NJA & AA
Posts: 1,920
It's rare to get more than 12 hours off because of "Hotel Standby". They keep you on a 30 minute leash so you can't stray too far from the hotel. I've even had my jet in Mx with no others available and they still kept us to 12 hours off and 12 hours Hotel Standby "just in case". Back when I was flying the BeechJunk we spent an entire 7 day tour doing hotel standby. Never saw the inside of a NetJets tail.
My standard joke about layovers is "Fly for NetJets and see the world thru your hotel room window"
Now I have had a few good deals like when we broke in Puerto Rico over New Year's and spent 3 days in a Ritz Carlton Resort
But those are few and far between.
I also flew the Phenom so can't add any info other than to confirm 14 hour days with 10 hours off were very rare.
My standard joke about layovers is "Fly for NetJets and see the world thru your hotel room window"
Now I have had a few good deals like when we broke in Puerto Rico over New Year's and spent 3 days in a Ritz Carlton Resort
But those are few and far between. I also flew the Phenom so can't add any info other than to confirm 14 hour days with 10 hours off were very rare.
Originally Posted by germanaviator
Quick couple of questions for you NJA guys and gals:
How many block hours do you do a year, on average, on the small and mid size fleets?
How often do you work close to 14 hour duty days followed by only 10 hours of rest or only slightly more?
How often is it about 12 hours duty/ 12 hours rest?
How often is it significantly better than that (say 8 to 10 hours duty and more than 12 hours rest)?
Trying to compare it to NJE where we have different flight time limitations than you guys.
How many block hours do you do a year, on average, on the small and mid size fleets?
How often do you work close to 14 hour duty days followed by only 10 hours of rest or only slightly more?
How often is it about 12 hours duty/ 12 hours rest?
How often is it significantly better than that (say 8 to 10 hours duty and more than 12 hours rest)?
Trying to compare it to NJE where we have different flight time limitations than you guys.
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