Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-21-2010, 04:02 PM   #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
cubbies4life's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Jets and Props
Posts: 187
Default A great article on the "pay to fly" jobs

I thought that most people have probably read this but I see threads pop up all the time asking people's opinions about these types of operators. Just read this...

taken from here, not sure if this is against a forum rule, if it just delete.
http://www.jetcareers.com/pay-for-tr...-programs.html

Pay-for-Job (PFJ)
Pay-for-Training (PFT)
“PFT/PFJ”. And as we’ve seen it’s come up time and time again in the forums so I decided to write an opinion piece on the issue.
It’s sad to say, but we’re really our worst enemy when it comes to compensation in the airline industry, especially on the “lower” level/timebuilding positions.
You capture a potential “PFT/PFJ” customer, fresh out of training at a flight school, FBO or academy. The leap from paying a few hundred dollars an hour for a Beech Duchess and instructor as a student trains for his multi-engine instrument rating to finding it perfectly reasonable to “invest” another $30,000-plus for 500 hours of Metroliner or Beechcraft 1900 time with the potential of being selected for a full-time position isn't all that difficult.
We’re always told that multi-engine time is worth more than gold so the allure of going just a little further in debt, deeper into the savings account or asking a well-heeled parent for another fistful of cash is a very attractive notion.
Let’s rewind the clock a bit and talk about why these programs exist.

They exist because of us.
Some of us sit around the airport café or hangar and talk about how we’d do this job for free, and how it’s not really like having a ‘real job’. Stories of working in a cubicle, in the leather tannery or down at the local "Gap" and how easy the decision was to drive down to the local flight school and inquire about becoming a professional pilot.
One day, an enterprising businessman probably overheard one of these conversations and determined that he could lease a Metroliner for a reasonable amount of capital, pick up an experienced captain and offer a program. A program created to separate the fresh multi-engine instrument certified pilot with the “Will Fly for Food” t-shirt from his cash as efficiently as possible.
The businessman will construct a business plan for a passenger or cargo airline, show his profit projections to interested investors and the money starts rolling in to finance the operation.
People that run these programs aren’t evil or manipulative.
They’re businessmen, first and foremost. You can't forget that. We live in America, not Communist Russia, we're great because we're a capitalist society.
They’re in this business to make a profit. And if they aren’t, they’re complete idiots.
Years ago, I'd say that these operators were scumbags, but considering the vast amount of information available on the internet, the fault lies squarely on our laps.
How does it hurt the industry?
This situation doesn’t exactly hurt the industry, let’s be honest about that, but you’ve got to cleanly separate the airline industry from the pilot profession.

On the industry: All financial analysts want to see is that an airline sells a seat which costs $X while selling the seat for $X+Y. The smaller the "X" and the bigger the "Y" means a positive analyst rating..
On the profession: The entry level job which would normally hire a young, neophyte pilot suddenly becomes a “PFT/PFJ” operation. Or as any good businessmen would do, look at the cost structure of his non "PFT/PJF" operation and adjust the starting pay wages to reflect the market. You certainly can't pay your brand new Metroliner FO $40,000 per year while an airline across the airport has people lined up to spend $25,000 just to get an $18,000/year job.
Why in the world would a businessman, whose only motivation is creating and sustaining a profitability pay a new Metroliner first officer a reasonable wage, while just across the taxiway, there are a few airlines that are charging first officers for the right to work there? It doesn’t make good business sense to do anything other than adjust the pay rates downward.
In aviation, crap rolls uphill. Yesterday, there were commuter airlines and a few cargo carriers involved in the “PFT/PFJ” scheme. Today, there are operations selling blocks of A-320, B-737 and B-727 time at "third-tier" carriers. If you don’t foresee that one day, without pilots learning to stand up for themselves that there won't be a global, major, national, or LCC carrier offering the opportunity to cut a check for $50,000 for a defined amount of flight time or to just get on the seniority list, you’re absolutely kidding yourself.
Then the job that you invested time, an incredible amount of money and perhaps, years of your life and even a spouse for is going to be to the level of a newspaper boy.
Just wait.
How does it hurt the pilot?
Depressed wages: Other similar airlines have to compete with the “PFT/PFJ”’s cost structure in order to keep the admiration of people with a financial interest in the airline's operation

It’s an incredible waste of resources that you could use as a ‘nest egg’. Despite what the neophytes think, a massive amount of debt is harder to pay down than you may realize and will certainly affect your career flexibility and your financial well-being.
It doesn’t help your career: While recommending a competitively qualified pilot when I was at the regionals, whenever I’d present a resume to the chief pilot, the first question out of his mouth was “…he didn’t buy any of this time, did he?” Could you imagine what would have happened to the resume if I said, "Oh yeah, Joe went down to 'Airline's R Us' in Miami and purchased 500 hours of Beech 1900 time and flew cargo for free"?
Next, airlines don’t want to be the first person that’s trusted you to operate an expensive hunk of machinery. They’re looking for someone who another employer has taken the chance to hire you, where you’ve completed training on-time and on-budget and have successfully disappeared into the seniority list. Don’t think for a moment that a "PFT/PFJ" operation, if you’re not performing well in Metroliner school, doesn’t have a profit motive in offering extra training, on your dime, to make sure you complete training.
Human resource directors know all about this.
A few ‘quick hits’ from previous forum posts:
“You’re jealous because you had to be a CFI…”
Now, in your best "Valley Girl" impression, raise a hand to the monitor and say "What everrrr" and make sure you extend the 'r' sound. Not at all. Being a certified flight instructor was literally the most rewarding flying I’ve ever done, even compared to today.
“…(you’re) not aware of how hard it is to build experience”
Au contraire. I wasn’t born an MD-80 FO, the logbook fairy didn't make me a 1900 pilot overnight and I certainly didn't wake up with a schedule full of students that automagically appeared when I earned my CFI
“I hear about all of the negatives, but what are the positives?”
Besides fostering a lucrative market where neophytes are quickly separated from their loot in promises of having the edge over any other applicant, nothing. And I’m being serious. 500 hours of operational experience, in all truthfulness, isn’t a lot of flight time in an active part 121/135 operation.
A few years ago, 121 and 135 operators that offer these programs, in my opinion, were the lowest of the low, but considering the wide amount of information feely available on the internet today, the fault lies solely in our own hands.
In closing
Don't be in such a big rush. Sure, earlier in the history of Jetcareers, I'd always preach about seniority numbers and doing things quickly in order to procure one. However, in retrospect, with a few more years of experience under my belt, the best times in my career aren't the possibilities in my future career, it was the things in my past that helped get me to where I am today.
Almost more rewarding than flying airplanes are the relationships that I've built with people that I've met along the way. If you cut through the career at mach speed, acquiring unnecessary debt, "get hired quick" schemes like PFT/PFJ, etc, you're not going to have the opportunity to pause, look around a little and enjoy yourself.
cubbies4life is offline  
Old 08-29-2010, 11:16 AM   #2  
Bracing for Fallacies
 
block30's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Has a DC-9 Type
Posts: 3,217
Default

Thank you! If you did pay for a job, don't apply with me.

On a related note, I remember a guy I interviewed who talked about taking a job for peanuts that was formerly reserved captains, who were fittingly paid a captain's salary at company X. Of course company X thought any monkey with the certificate could do job Y and exhange their talent pool with a talent-less pool.


Anyways, I thought to myself, "what an a-hole, he's proud of the race to the bottom." Yeah, didn't hire him.
block30 is offline  
Old 09-04-2010, 03:41 PM   #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Climbto450's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 320 F.O.
Posts: 1,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by block30 View Post
Thank you! If you did pay for a job, don't apply with me.

On a related note, I remember a guy I interviewed who talked about taking a job for peanuts that was formerly reserved captains, who were fittingly paid a captain's salary at company X. Of course company X thought any monkey with the certificate could do job Y and exhange their talent pool with a talent-less pool.


Anyways, I thought to myself, "what an a-hole, he's proud of the race to the bottom." Yeah, didn't hire him.
I agree. I won't recomend or hire any pilot, no matter how good he is(even if it was Bob Hoover himself) for a job. I am not saying not to pay for a job, but if you do myself and most of the guys I know don't want anything to do with that caliber of (lack of) professional pilot.
Climbto450 is offline  
Old 09-04-2010, 04:18 PM   #4  
pants on the ground
 
mmaviator's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: back seat
Posts: 1,335
Default

MODS-

Maybe you can sticky this to the top since this discussion(P2P) always comes up.
mmaviator is offline  
Old 09-04-2010, 08:25 PM   #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
chuckyt1's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Fero's
Posts: 467
Default

Never cheapen the profession. PFJ and PFT is cheapening the profession. Just don't do it...
chuckyt1 is offline  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:45 AM   #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Hacker15e's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: IPZ to Mr.
Posts: 1,245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaviator View Post
MODS-

Maybe you can sticky this to the top since this discussion(P2P) always comes up.
I'll also recommend that while they're following the link, people additionally look into the discussion forums over to JetCareers. It is a great aviation forum in it's own right with additional resources like the one linked also on the site.

The membership spans the scope of experience, but the core group seems to be lower time folks who are interested in learning right.
Hacker15e is offline  
Old 09-05-2010, 06:40 AM   #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
BizPilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 379
Default

I paid my dues, over 1,000 hours of dual instruction over several years. I know of two people who were airport bums who seemed to pickup FREE flying, when they had 1,000TT they jumped into corporate positions. It seems like they took the easy way out.

I busted my butt to get CFII, and MEI.
BizPilot is offline  
Old 09-05-2010, 09:37 AM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
UCLAbruins's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: F/O- G-V/550
Posts: 1,161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckyt1 View Post
Never cheapen the profession. PFJ and PFT is cheapening the profession. Just don't do it...
we've been asking the young guys not to offer to fly for free because the guy after him/her might have a family to support and he'd need to get paid... yet some (NOT ALL) still do it.. They want that turbine-time, or multi-engine time and they want it now and they'll do anything to get it, including flying for free or paying to fly. Makes me mad just thinking about it


flying for free is bad but not as bad as paying to fly...

advancing your career with a swipe of a credit card.... bad
UCLAbruins is offline  
Old 09-20-2010, 10:54 AM   #9  
On Reserve
 
Ridgewoodpilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: C172 Right seat
Posts: 23
Default

Ok, so I too am paying my dues instructing at the age of 39 with a little to go for 1000+ hours. Although this may sound stupid but a student asked me about this subject the other day. I gave him the heart to heart speech and made it clear on why getting paid and not the other way can have a positive influence on his future. But then thinking about it, I truly only know of about 2 or 3 outfits that still do this. It seems I may be left in the dark when it comes to "all these companies". True I may feel like I live in a shoebox sometimes with family/work life but I think that I'm truly out of the loop on the up to date information. Can someone elaborate on the companies that still do these kind of operations? PM me if need be. I would just like to know because lately people are making it sound like every other company is doing this. Maybe if more people were aware of the actual companies that are on a "black list" more pilots can avoid these areas of operations. I for one would be glad to pass that information on to people that inquire about it.
Ridgewoodpilot is offline  
Old 10-15-2010, 02:46 PM   #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
featheredprop's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: right seat
Posts: 236
Default

PFT, PFJ , Pay for airfare to interviews , NO SIC type , unpaid indoc, training contracts all cheapen the industry !. Oh lets not forget the bogus CRJ courses given at ATP that cost the same as some type rating .The percieved cure for shiny jet syndrome .

Last edited by featheredprop; 10-15-2010 at 03:07 PM.
featheredprop is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Decent Leads for the Great Recession - Pilots SkyyDesk Hiring News 65 12-15-2013 10:20 AM
Republic may drop Midwest name Pielut Major 187 03-23-2010 06:20 PM
Great Article on Pilot Wages JoeyMeatballs Major 1 12-23-2009 07:38 AM
Bryan Lawlor's Response to his Article in NYT par8head Major 3 10-17-2009 06:10 AM
Job Banks and Other Resources vagabond Hiring News 1 09-15-2008 09:10 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:07 PM.