168TT in Middle Tennessee Area
12-27-2010, 01:42 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by 14CFR
My most immediate advice would be to try to acquire some right-seat time in an aircraft certified for single-pilot commercial operations, such that minimal risk and/or cost is added to the operator. If it's in a turbine aircraft, such as a King Air (90, 200, 350, etc.) or Pilatus (PC12) or Cessna Citation CJ1,2,3,4, or other, even better (for you)! These opportunities are most likely unpaid, and under part 91, but are completely loggable if you are rated in the airplane. Also, to obtain an SIC type (another notch on the resume belt, albeit not a very powerfull one) in an aircraft like a CJ3 is very simple, if you do find someone willing to let you occupy the right seat occasionally.
It is more likely you would get hired to sit right seat in a 135 operation that requires two pilots but even that will be difficult. You do not need turbine time, or SIC time, you need PIC time in an aircraft you can realistically fly. Try to get a job instructing, but realize your first students will be sacrificial while you figure out what you are doing (if that does not bother you). You can take this advice, or just listen to the other posters who have just as little time as you and are trying to convince themselves that 168 hours is enough.
12-27-2010, 04:37 AM
#32
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Yeah I thought it was poor advice as well but I wasn't sure exactly what he was saying. I thought he was saying to get a type after reaching a thousand hours or so. No one should buy a type rating who has 168 hours TT unless their uncle owns the airplane. I think he should he should try and find a flight instructor job and use his excellent training record to show the hiring boss that he is ready for the job. I don't see why someone wouldn't consider him along with other beginning instructors but he needs to make the boss feel that his unusually low flight time is not an impediment. He could also work up the time before applying, he's only a couple hundred hours short of what most people have at that level, maybe 500 hours. Although being a new CFI at 168 hours is impressive in terms of an ability to get a lot done in a short time and to pass tests, it does not work well as resume material and the OP is going to have to work around that impediment for a couple hundred hours. Good luck, Dlb4a!
12-27-2010, 08:05 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by 14CFR
We as pilots have a tendency to put our feet in our mouths occasionally, so just take it with a grain of salt. Many who speak in absolutes, especially with regard to part 141 are misinformed. For instance, it is feasible for a pilot to acquire commercial certificate(s) with less than 190TT. It would have to be done under the "Special Curriculum" section of 14CFR Part 141 and would also have to be "blessed" by said 141 pilot school's Principal Operations Inspector/FAA, which would be a feat in and of itself, but not impossible.
On the good side, congrats on completing your commercial certificate(s) within such low time, I do hope the quality of instruction was high (an occurence which is not very common anymore).
It is an extremely hard market for pilots of all levels at the moment, so just breathe in and out.
First, I believe the only way you are going to be successful with your credentials as they currently are listed is to look at your certificates as a license to continue learning. This is the same truth that all pilots should abide buy, but few actually do. Likewise, by "successful" I do not simply mean financially.
Secondly (on the more negative side) I highly doubt you will be able to find a financially viable flying career (one that will fully sustain you) with your current qualifications. The easiest reason for this is insurance. I personally don't know of any insurance provider who would insure a PIC providing commercial services with that low of time without the candidate having gone through some formal training program centered around said aircraft's make and model (Flight Safety, SimCom, etc.) followed by some sort of pseudo-extensive initial operating experience (IOE) regime. These are high $$ training outlets and are most commonly paid for by a pilot's employer, but can be acquired independently. Now, miracles do happen everyday, so never stop looking and networking!
My most immediate advice would be to try to acquire some right-seat time in an aircraft certified for single-pilot commercial operations, such that minimal risk and/or cost is added to the operator. If it's in a turbine aircraft, such as a King Air (90, 200, 350, etc.) or Pilatus (PC12) or Cessna Citation CJ1,2,3,4, or other, even better (for you)! These opportunities are most likely unpaid, and under part 91, but are completely loggable if you are rated in the airplane. Also, to obtain an SIC type (another notch on the resume belt, albeit not a very powerfull one) in an aircraft like a CJ3 is very simple, if you do find someone willing to let you occupy the right seat occasionally.
That being said, you will most likely need a second job to pay the bills (also something very common in aviation).
Third, and only if you are interested and have the desire to learn and teach, pursue all three of your CFI certificates/ratings. The initial alone will not do much for you in the long run. Also, having all of your CFI ratings is a selling point when looking for that right seat time, as many of these pilots currently pay for flight reviews/IPC's, etc. and you may be able to barter with them. But, don't become a CFI just to acquire hours. There are far too many of those pilots out there and it is doing more damage and physical harm than good.
It won't take you very long to reach the point where a 135 operator will look at you (Ameriflight, etc.), if that is the route you wish to take up the ladder. Personally, I find single-pilot IFR a bit too risky for my taste, but to each their own.
Anyway, just some words of advise from a fellow aviator.
Good Luck and God Speed!
On the good side, congrats on completing your commercial certificate(s) within such low time, I do hope the quality of instruction was high (an occurence which is not very common anymore).
It is an extremely hard market for pilots of all levels at the moment, so just breathe in and out.
First, I believe the only way you are going to be successful with your credentials as they currently are listed is to look at your certificates as a license to continue learning. This is the same truth that all pilots should abide buy, but few actually do. Likewise, by "successful" I do not simply mean financially.
Secondly (on the more negative side) I highly doubt you will be able to find a financially viable flying career (one that will fully sustain you) with your current qualifications. The easiest reason for this is insurance. I personally don't know of any insurance provider who would insure a PIC providing commercial services with that low of time without the candidate having gone through some formal training program centered around said aircraft's make and model (Flight Safety, SimCom, etc.) followed by some sort of pseudo-extensive initial operating experience (IOE) regime. These are high $$ training outlets and are most commonly paid for by a pilot's employer, but can be acquired independently. Now, miracles do happen everyday, so never stop looking and networking!
My most immediate advice would be to try to acquire some right-seat time in an aircraft certified for single-pilot commercial operations, such that minimal risk and/or cost is added to the operator. If it's in a turbine aircraft, such as a King Air (90, 200, 350, etc.) or Pilatus (PC12) or Cessna Citation CJ1,2,3,4, or other, even better (for you)! These opportunities are most likely unpaid, and under part 91, but are completely loggable if you are rated in the airplane. Also, to obtain an SIC type (another notch on the resume belt, albeit not a very powerfull one) in an aircraft like a CJ3 is very simple, if you do find someone willing to let you occupy the right seat occasionally.
That being said, you will most likely need a second job to pay the bills (also something very common in aviation).
Third, and only if you are interested and have the desire to learn and teach, pursue all three of your CFI certificates/ratings. The initial alone will not do much for you in the long run. Also, having all of your CFI ratings is a selling point when looking for that right seat time, as many of these pilots currently pay for flight reviews/IPC's, etc. and you may be able to barter with them. But, don't become a CFI just to acquire hours. There are far too many of those pilots out there and it is doing more damage and physical harm than good.
It won't take you very long to reach the point where a 135 operator will look at you (Ameriflight, etc.), if that is the route you wish to take up the ladder. Personally, I find single-pilot IFR a bit too risky for my taste, but to each their own.
Anyway, just some words of advise from a fellow aviator.
Good Luck and God Speed!
I agree this was an awesome informative insightful post. I would say disregard all the post that having nothing positive to say. The ones that are saying you JUST CANT DO IT at your times,because that is not true. I did my PVT-CFII by 200TT( maybe not as low as your times but close) started instructed full time at the school I received my ratings at. Everything worked out for me. I would say get your CFI tickets and go for it. There is so much for you to learn, and hopefully there are senior instructors around to help you along the way. Don't let anyone on here say you CAN'T do it. Just because they didn't achieve all of their ratings at your time, or whatever the case may be doesn't mean it can't be done.
Good Luck with whatever path you choose to take !!!
12-27-2010, 01:52 PM
#34
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Chief Pilot
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
The above is horrible information. Paying for a type rating (especially a SIC) is useless with 168 hours and no job to use it. A PC12 or CJ rating is not cheap and good luck finding someone who will let someone with that little time fly their aircraft. Let's say that you happen to find someone who owns a PC12 and wants you to fly it with them. You then would have to go to PC12 school and spend lots of money. Months later after you finish, you knock on that guy’s door to remind him that he wanted you to fly his aircraft. Even though his insurance company only approved the owner to act as PIC, he decides to risk his insurance policy to help you out. Then for your first real job, the interviewer looks at you logbook and laughs because they see that after 168 hours of training, you are logging PIC time in a PC12 and they ask you to leave thinking your forged your logbook.
It is more likely you would get hired to sit right seat in a 135 operation that requires two pilots but even that will be difficult. You do not need turbine time, or SIC time, you need PIC time in an aircraft you can realistically fly. Try to get a job instructing, but realize your first students will be sacrificial while you figure out what you are doing (if that does not bother you). You can take this advice, or just listen to the other posters who have just as little time as you and are trying to convince themselves that 168 hours is enough.
It is more likely you would get hired to sit right seat in a 135 operation that requires two pilots but even that will be difficult. You do not need turbine time, or SIC time, you need PIC time in an aircraft you can realistically fly. Try to get a job instructing, but realize your first students will be sacrificial while you figure out what you are doing (if that does not bother you). You can take this advice, or just listen to the other posters who have just as little time as you and are trying to convince themselves that 168 hours is enough.
You, my friend, are misquoting me. Pilots are horrible readers
I did not say "pay for a type rating" I implied the person should find someone who is already PIC in a single-pilot commercial operation and see if they will let you sit right-seat. It's called networking and is most likely the reason why you are a member of APC. Such opportunities exist for such aircraft as the PC12, King Air, CJ, etc. I know...I did it.Then, If he/she gets in a couple dead-leg landings and some emergency practice, he/she can then take 8710 to FSDO and acquire an SIC, if he/she so desires. Granted, it doesn't do much for the person in the long run, but it does help with resume growth.
Also, PIC time alone is nearly as useless as anything else that goes in a log book when viewed alone. Quality of time is the long term goal, not quantity.
Do not instruct for the sole purpose of building time. Instruct to learn, teach and then build credential. The pilots who are the product of time builders are the ones with poor/incorrect/inaccurate information and skill, however deep it is burried. Primacy.
The best advice for someone with low time is to have multiple pokers in the fire and ALWAYS take advantage of continued education, otherwise we're all just a bunch of whining furloughed ______ Airlines pilots.
12-27-2010, 05:19 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Originally Posted by 14CFR
You, my friend, are misquoting me. Pilots are horrible readers I did not say "pay for a type rating" I implied the person should find someone who is already PIC in a single-pilot commercial operation and see if they will let you sit right-seat. It's called networking and is most likely the reason why you are a member of APC. Such opportunities exist for such aircraft as the PC12, King Air, CJ, etc. I know...I did it.
I did not say "pay for a type rating" I implied the person should find someone who is already PIC in a single-pilot commercial operation and see if they will let you sit right-seat. It's called networking and is most likely the reason why you are a member of APC. Such opportunities exist for such aircraft as the PC12, King Air, CJ, etc. I know...I did it.And since when is PIC time from instructing useless when viewed alone? I think any PIC time after training is much better than using the radio and managing the autopilot while logging SIC.
12-27-2010, 07:32 PM
#36
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
Posts: 849
Originally Posted by DayTripper12
168hr flight instructor!?!?!?!
Thats crazy! I have more time sitting on the crapper on an ATR.
168hr flight instructor!?!?!?!
Thats crazy! I have more time sitting on the crapper on an ATR.
Originally Posted by cmac88
Almost every instructor at Riddle starts with those times....
(Sorry, I couldn't resist)
12-27-2010, 10:54 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B744 FO
Posts: 375
And of course, in middle Tennessee there is Eagleville Sailplanes/Puckett Gliderport (ssa.org > about soaring > where to fly) as another means of timebuilding, while making you a better, more rounded pilot. And add another rating, for that matter, add a CFI-G while you're at it. And do some glider towing in their Maule, too.
Last edited by 727gm; 12-27-2010 at 10:55 PM. Reason: addl. info.
12-28-2010, 07:06 AM
#38
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Chief Pilot
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
I understand you better now, but logging SIC in a single pilot aircraft is useless unless the operating certificate requires two pilots. A PC12 and King Air are out of question part 91, but a CJ is possible. Of course, possible is very different than likely. Also, to get a SIC signoff, you would have to get the owner to run through OEI procedures, and I don’t know too many owners who want to waste time in their personal aircraft to help someone build time. The effort the op would have to go through to actually get to build this time would be better spent networking to get a CFI job. A job is always better than building time. When it comes for a low time pilot to build some experience, telling them to sit right seat in a jet is blowing smoke up their a$$. Why not just tell the op to get a regional captain to walk his resume in? I am not saying it is out of the question, but let the op know the chances are slim.
And since when is PIC time from instructing useless when viewed alone? I think any PIC time after training is much better than using the radio and managing the autopilot while logging SIC.
And since when is PIC time from instructing useless when viewed alone? I think any PIC time after training is much better than using the radio and managing the autopilot while logging SIC.
Black and white example: I had a phone conversation with ___ Airlines (insert highly prized airline here) Domicile Manager just about 2 months ago covering the same topic; two pilots in an interview: pilot A currently flies a corporate jet, pilot B currently instructs on transport category aircraft (level D sim) that ____ Airlines operates. Even though ____ Airline knows that pilot B (instructor) is a better choice, Pilot A is chosen because he/she has better quality of time for getting in the door.
Now I didn't mention PIC time anywhere in that example because, per aforementioned conversation, in today's aviation industry, many recruiting departments are filtering resumes by quality of time, not just quantity.
There was also no smoke going up any poop shoot. If I can do it, anybody can. In fact it was easier than finding instructing work. It's not the owner one needs to convince, it's the PIC who operates the owner's machine. And this is only one avenue. There are many options open to someone willing to try and chances are only slim if you convince yourself they are. We are our own worst enemy.
Nor did I say he/she had to log SIC. I said that one can acquire an SIC type rating very easily and add additional weight to one's CV. A similar argument can be made of the AGI and IGI certificates. These are also pretty much useless if one has CFI ratings except to attain a Gold Seal and even that doesn't mean anything anymore with the pilot-mills that currently exist across the country.
The import thing is that when someone asks for help, we help them instead of criticize.
01-02-2011, 06:39 AM
#40
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by dlb4a
Here is the breakdown from my resume.
Total………………………...168
Diamond Star 20…………..1.0 (spin training for CFI)
Pilot in Command…….…67
Diamond Star 40……….121.8
Single Engine…………….154.8
Piper Arrow 28R…………..26.8
Piper Seminole 44………..13.2
Multi Engine……………….13.2
(logbook has 33.8 sim hours)
At Middle Tennessee State University the flight school's training is predominately all proficiency based. If one can get into the aircraft and show that they can handle the regs's requirements then they can advanced; however we do have an intensive syllabus which includes: Private Pilot Cert, Instru Rating, Comm. Cert, Multi, CFI, CFII, MEI, High Performance, and Tail Wheel.
I may not have a load of experience flying airplanes but I am certain I can handle a greater difficultly level of flying than you gentlemen give me credit for. My initial CFI checkride is Dec. 21, 2010 (next Tuesday).
Again, If anyone has helpful or considerate information to pass along, I would greatly appreciate it.
http://www.mtsu.edu/aerospace (For those who need HARD facts.)
Total………………………...168
Diamond Star 20…………..1.0 (spin training for CFI)
Pilot in Command…….…67
Diamond Star 40……….121.8
Single Engine…………….154.8
Piper Arrow 28R…………..26.8
Piper Seminole 44………..13.2
Multi Engine……………….13.2
(logbook has 33.8 sim hours)
At Middle Tennessee State University the flight school's training is predominately all proficiency based. If one can get into the aircraft and show that they can handle the regs's requirements then they can advanced; however we do have an intensive syllabus which includes: Private Pilot Cert, Instru Rating, Comm. Cert, Multi, CFI, CFII, MEI, High Performance, and Tail Wheel.
I may not have a load of experience flying airplanes but I am certain I can handle a greater difficultly level of flying than you gentlemen give me credit for. My initial CFI checkride is Dec. 21, 2010 (next Tuesday).
Again, If anyone has helpful or considerate information to pass along, I would greatly appreciate it.
http://www.mtsu.edu/aerospace (For those who need HARD facts.)
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