93Sierra

Don't apply go else where

JohnBurke

And yet you're the same who one year ago had very different to say, weren't you?

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/p...ml#post2334296

boschpilot

I dunno man, I'm not trolling you but you do seem pretty angry at the pilots albeit rather coherent in regards to the situation. I'm not new to this business and when some one says that pilots are being paid more than they are worth at only a few hundred a day or are getting sued over training contracts the problem is most probably not with the labor. People don't run to the airlines when they are getting paid 6 figures in their first year they scramble for it and for good reason. Hope the stuff about maintenance is not true about Eloy as it's a good opportunity to build a valuable type of hours for most guys.

JohnBurke

I'm not angry with them at all. Quite a few low time prima donnas, some good kids, and a few idiots. About what one might expect. The DZ puts all new hires through 100 hours of hands-on flight training, in addition to ground, and specific training with different groups or operations. One needs to take what a 250 hour pilot has to say, with a grain of salt. They've got no background or experience from which to make a comparison.

The problem is with the labor. 250 or 500 hour pilots are a dime a dozen. When some kid rocks up on the doorstep and gets one flight for the day, then whines that the trip to the DZ wasn't worth his time, it's a labor problem. He gets paid the same weather he flies one flight or five. The pilot who grinds the wheels off the airplane trying to brake hard and get to the restroom...that's a labor problem. That's taken into account, but the fact is that kids with wet commercials who jump right into multi turbine aircraft have one hell of a deal, and don't know just how good an opportunity it is.

If they didn't agree to the training contract, they shouldn't sign it. Fact is, these kids want the hours to run to the airlines, and they're more than happy to sign away to get it...just not always willing to fulfill their obligation as soon as they have the magic numbers to get a job interview. If such get sued or if the employer expects them to honor the contract, then nobody should have a problem with that. Pick up one end of the stick, pick up the other; sign the contract, then be willing to honor it. When you have employees without honor who won't stand behind their own signature, then that's a labor problem.

No drop zone is going to pay a 250 hour pilot six figures to drop fun jumpers. For those who put in the hours, there is a sliding scale that pays more if they're available at the DZ past a certain point, and they can do okay. Far better than many other entry level jobs. The regional jobs they're rushing off to aren't six figure jobs, either.

When that shiny jet syndrome overcomes personal integrity and they've got their hours, yes, they bolt for the regionals. Millennials have got to have it now, and the ones who are facing legal demands to honor their contract are such individuals. They knew the pay coming in, they knew the pay when they signed.

As said before, I have no dog in the hunt; doesn't affect me one way or the other. I posted in response to the first-time poster above; his was entirely second or third hand information, all inaccurate or completely wrong, and clearly not given on the basis of any semblance of experience.

If someone wishes to see if their experience level is acceptable, then apply. If they're not hired, what's the cost?

Nothing.

adialup78

Hmmmm where to start. I worked there for about two years. I was very fortunate to get a job logging tpic with about 500 hours. It was some of the coolest flying I'm sure I'll ever have the joy of doing. I left at the beginning of the year along with all the other pilots and I am not being "sued" by SDAZ but from what I hear a few of the pilots who didn't complete their training have received letters with the intent of litigation unless the pilots pay back $1000 a month for every month early they left. I can't speak directly for them but I know the jist of why most left. Unfortunately the upper echelon at SDAZ shares Mr. "Burke's" ( I'm pretty sure I've got you pegged) trash opinion on pilots. We were just cheap expendable labor. I made anywhere from 10-14 bucks an hour my first year flying otters/skyvans depending on the day ($5-$7 a load on long days) the flying was a blast for the most part. Unfortunately a lack of safety culture and an overall crap attitude towards the pilots is why most if not all left. Unfortunately this isn't exclusive to Eloy but most drop zones. Engines are ran until they pop, given SDAZ's fleet hot sections would probably cost a fortune a year. Now imagine a low time pilot having an engine failure on climb out, getting the jumpers out safely over the dz, and getting back on the ground with out hurting the airplane get picked apart for landing long and getting on the brakes hard. Big suck it up and fly mentality. They wouldn't ever force you to fly something you didn't want too but just how one of our awesome maintainers "Mr. Burke" displayed above the working relationship between the pilots and the maintenance staff wasn't exactly positive. We'd under inflate tires and theyd send airplanes out to fly after coming out of maintenance with fuel dripping on ours and our passengers heads and even sent an airplane out to fly with a completely drained hydraulic system. We were never respected and we were treated like cheap labor because in reality that's all we were. As much as I wanted to do this job for much longer and be part of the family I and many others realized we were there to fill a seat. All the pilots asked for a little more money and little more latitude and that was rejected, no compromise just flat out rejected. That's when everyone decided to develop an exit strategy. The pilots who didn't live out their contracts may have not held up their side of the deal but neither did SDAZ. We as pilots along with the maintaininers carry the majority of the responsibility, DZ's rely on our skills to keep them from ending up on the news and closing their doors. I really hope this attitude changes across skydiving as many other DZ's are guilty as well. As much as I loved the flying and the cool adventures it left to bad of a taste in my mouth to come back to it anytime soon. If you want to work there go for it. Turbine pic looks great on a resumè, but just remember you're using them for experience and they are using you for profit, don't get your feelings hurt like we did when you're treated like dirt in the process. You will definitely sell a little of your soul. Go read Mr. Burke's comments and ask yourself if you'd want to work for someone who thinks of pilots like that because he summed it pretty well.

93Sierra

Well said.

flyboy94

I know this first-hand, nothing is more important than your own life! Not even PIC Turbine time.

flyboy94

Before you decide to work for SDAZ, familiarize yourself with this document:

https://gao.az.gov/sites/default/fil...r%20150701.pdf

Mommysays

amen bruh

ssyc

So many things to address. Where to start...

First of all - for someone that continues to address the first time posters on here about hiding behind a username, you tend to enjoy the same anonymous benefits. Using the username Burke is clever inspiration, although I am fairly certain you don't drink near as much as he does, and there is no way you know a fraction of what he does. But with your 2,000+ posts on here you sure think you do. Secondly we all don't have the time to sit in the bond room after our shifts, into the wee hours of the night on our laptops doing God knows what, but after reading far too many of your posts, I now have an idea of where you found the time. It always looked like a comfy chair and it was the only room in the hangar that peons were allowed into that had AC. Makes sense.

Next item of business - if you had spent less time on here,and more time doing maintenance (other than testing radio stacks) perhaps engines wouldn't be shutting down midflight, syncing the props wouldnt take a miracle of God, entire wheels wouldn't fall off after landing, and pieces of a blown engine wouldn't be penetrating the fuselage. For someone that was a mechanic ,and a very part time pilot, you sure have a chip on your shoulder for the "low time" pilots even though the pilot that ran the plane out of fuel and landed short of the runway with no engines, was one of your beloved high time pilots that management chose to use for the event because they didn't want any of the "low time" "wet commercial" pilots flying it to screw anything up. How did that work out? None of those pathetic low timers you hate ever ran out of fuel.

And if you really want to get into the integrity of individuals lets get it all out there. It would be wise not to come on here bashing pilots when someone you may know had to spend a little extra time retraining on the skyvan before he could get signed off. This same guy you may know would also bring the props back below company limitations (which I guess is okay to break limitations if you're a pilot and a mechanic right?...). But the worst part about the integrity of this guy that you may know very well (because you and he have a crazy amount of things in common) is that he jumps on the forums bashing the very pilots that he smiled to and acted like a friend to. So please, do not start any lectures about integrity on here.

And while we are on the topic lets address the integrity of the company. As someone else on the forums recently pointed out - You can't have your cake and eat it. SDAZ enjoys the financial benefits of a severe lack of integrity. Hiring pilots as "independent contractors" to avoid taxes and the liability associated with employees is fine and dandy if you actually treat them as independent contractors but they don't. They treat them like employees. They ask the pilots to sign a contract that has no language of pay giving them way too much wiggle room to screw them over when the time is right. They say that the $18,000 is a pro rated amount for what it costs the company to train you and then they wrap it in a package with a bow and sell it to you by saying "Isn't it so great that we give you 100 hours of training for only $180 an hour? that's barely more than renting a Cessna." When in reality you aren't renting it and you aren't actually being trained in it. You are riding along for the first 40 hours watching the PIC execute everything while he talks you through it and then eventually you move to the left seat, fly some more, and then they sign you off around 80-90 hours.

So by my calculations 80 is not 100 and neither is 90 which means they can't charge you for the 100 hours of training you didnt get. Now before you get all mad "Mr Burke" I know the DOD requires 100 hours before you can fly them but I'm here to tell you that while you were in the hangar fixing the private 182 we were out flying the groups with less than 100 hours because as an employee we were scheduled to fly the groups as PIC before we hit 100. Oh wait...I thought we were independent contractors. Dang. Theres that integrity issue again. And for some reason charging someone $180 an hour for "training" while he observes and mans the radios flying a group that the company just charged $2700 an hour for seems like a real, real, big integrity issue to me.

Well, I've taken too much of your time. I'm sure theres a smiley face with a bullet hole on a shirt to be worn somewhere, those MD11 radio stacks wont change themselves, and a bond room with AC is missing its master so I better let you go. But do me a favor and back off of these low time pilots you seem to be so bitter about. They work their tails off flying ridiculous hours at all hours of the day and night to get the hours they need to move on to better places. Yes it is a good opportunity for them to get the hours, but lets get something straight. SDAZ needs the low times as much as they need SDAZ. Without those "low time" scum you speak of the upper ups wouldn't have all that money to buy personal helicopters, king airs, razors, and brand new $70,000 trucks every year.

Have a great night and say hello to those sexy three holers. MD sure knew what they were doin.