Flaps 45 vs. 22
08-16-2017, 02:56 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,067
Originally Posted by Lvlng4Spd
Ok I am glad we are having this discussion because it isn't happening on SOE with some it appears, me included. As much as I'm getting comfortable with using eiither, I am seeing new hires who are very hesitant to go with 45, even when they should. Some very afraid of even a squeak above 145 knots with it, making large power changes to avoid, de-stabilizing, etc...even though momentary up to 155 is permitted and I believe EV even permits up to 160 knots momentary. If we want a shift then we need to get the facts out there clearly and of course keep utlizing the skill.
08-16-2017, 03:08 AM
#23
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Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: CA
Posts: 1,211
Flew the 145 for over 8 years and generally preferred Flaps 45.
XJT did have a period (maybe 6 months) where for fuel savings they asked us to do Flaps 22 landings. The findings were the gear would need overhaul/MX sooner negating any minor fuel savings. Remember force goes up exponentially with velocity.
While it was easier to get a smooth touchdown with Flaps 22, I found the approaches could become less stable. With 22 it always still felt slippery with the engines being a little less spooled up.
With 45 it always just locked in. Throw in 45, get the power in and it just felt more stable, even in gusty winds.
XJT did have a period (maybe 6 months) where for fuel savings they asked us to do Flaps 22 landings. The findings were the gear would need overhaul/MX sooner negating any minor fuel savings. Remember force goes up exponentially with velocity.
While it was easier to get a smooth touchdown with Flaps 22, I found the approaches could become less stable. With 22 it always still felt slippery with the engines being a little less spooled up.
With 45 it always just locked in. Throw in 45, get the power in and it just felt more stable, even in gusty winds.
08-19-2017, 05:48 PM
#24
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Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 1,609
Just curious on how PDT and XJT use reverse thrust. Suffice it to say at Envoy we can use Max when needed and when we have to for the landing penalty for fair/poor braking action. Idle TR for runways less than 7000.
At Envoy it is always assumed flaps 22. I don't even ask anymore I just set the speeds and say flaps 22 when we are landing at a long runway. I can count on one hand where myself or the other guys landed flaps 45. (Except for runways less than 6000.)
At Envoy it is always assumed flaps 22. I don't even ask anymore I just set the speeds and say flaps 22 when we are landing at a long runway. I can count on one hand where myself or the other guys landed flaps 45. (Except for runways less than 6000.)
08-20-2017, 04:01 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,067
Originally Posted by Pedro4President
Just curious on how PDT and XJT use reverse thrust. Suffice it to say at Envoy we can use Max when needed and when we have to for the landing penalty for fair/poor braking action. Idle TR for runways less than 7000.
At Envoy it is always assumed flaps 22. I don't even ask anymore I just set the speeds and say flaps 22 when we are landing at a long runway. I can count on one hand where myself or the other guys landed flaps 45. (Except for runways less than 6000.)
At Envoy it is always assumed flaps 22. I don't even ask anymore I just set the speeds and say flaps 22 when we are landing at a long runway. I can count on one hand where myself or the other guys landed flaps 45. (Except for runways less than 6000.)
08-21-2017, 03:44 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by CBreezy
At TSA, it's whatever you want but encourage 45. My technique was to use idle buckets unless on a wet or snowy runway. It drove me crazy when new FOs would get on full reverse on a 10000 foot runway. I'd apply light to medium braking just to get them warmed up but that's all it really needs.
It seems like the 145 is the only commercial aircraft that doesn't use reversers on landing as the default. In training, I was told that the brakes actually last longer if they get really hot during landings. I don't really know enough about the subject to call BS on it, but it seems weird to me.
In training, flaps 22 was the default, except for non precision approaches, where 45 is encouraged. I've been doing most of my landings 22, but after flying with captains who have 10,000+ hours, they have convinced me that flaps 45 would make more sense in a lot of cases. I'm going to start doing most of my landings at 45 now.
08-21-2017, 08:17 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: Embraer Systems Analyst
Posts: 1,853
Originally Posted by PDTFlyer
Why do so many people insist on flaps 22 on a calm day? I see this on the line quite often.
08-21-2017, 08:46 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,067
Originally Posted by minimwage4
Because it's so much easier to fly the final and also land it smoothly. The 145 is sluggish at slow speeds. You really have to try to roll it on with 45, where as any idiot can roll it on 22 because the angle of the nose is higher requiring almost no added flare. It just rolls on. As far as winter ops, don't do 22. But if you have TRs it doesn't really matter it slows down right away in snow.
08-22-2017, 04:38 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by PDTFlyer
I was there during that period. Flaps 22 was chewing up brakes at an astonishing rate. So they quickly told everyone to go to Flaps 45 right away. Fun experiment.
08-22-2017, 06:48 AM
#30
Happy at PDT
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: EMB-145 CA
Posts: 983
Originally Posted by wiz5422
Funny how envoy has been doing flaps 22 for awhile now with no problem with brakes..........
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