Transfer of 70 seat aircraft to PSA in doubt
05-15-2015, 09:54 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 988
Originally Posted by FirstClass
That's fine, there is plenty of other pilots at other regional airlines who might like to come over and sit in the captain seat for a year or two before moving on.
I could do this all day with you, its so easy. But I have stuff to do so I'll check back in later with you to correct all your ramblings and half baked ideas.
I could do this all day with you, its so easy. But I have stuff to do so I'll check back in later with you to correct all your ramblings and half baked ideas.
05-15-2015, 10:00 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,128
Originally Posted by Glofliser
I think this is still a non issue. They are just following ALPA protocol. We should all wait and see what happens before we jump to conclusions. Of course, it would be best if the aircraft stay where they are but I think AAG already made their decision. If that's the case, then everyone should work for the best outcome for all involved pilots. Below is the e-mail we got today from our MEC. It explains why the e-mail was sent and you can read that it WAS NOT initiated by PSA MEC
"May 14, 2015
Dear Fellow PSA Pilots:
I’m writing to address some questions that have come up as to administration of ALPA policy dealing with transfer of aircraft between ALPA represented carriers. The language of the policy is in the ALPA Administrative Manual, Section 45, Part 4.
This policy applies if the acquiring ALPA carrier (here, PSA) agrees to employ pilots of the ALPA carrier transferring the aircraft (here, ENY) and to integrate them using the procedures of ALPA merger policy or a mutually satisfactory substitute process. It also provides that if the acquiring carrier does not intend to employ and integrate transferring pilots, “the President [of ALPA] shall urge the acquiring carrier to do so.”
Our carrier has not publicly stated its intent as to employing or integrating ENY pilots with respect to the announced transfer of 47 CRJ700s. ALPA’s President, Captain Tim Canoll is obligated by ALPA policy to “urge” our carrier “to do so.” Captain Canoll appropriately sought input from the ENY MEC Chairman and from me on this question.
In this context, I hope you will understand that my recent letter to Captain Canoll on this subject simply confirms that our ALPA President should carry out his own obligations under ALPA policy. Nothing more, nothing less. We should all have the reasonable expectation that our ALPA President will diligently follow ALPA policy, until we choose to change it going forward.
Fraternally,"
"May 14, 2015
Dear Fellow PSA Pilots:
I’m writing to address some questions that have come up as to administration of ALPA policy dealing with transfer of aircraft between ALPA represented carriers. The language of the policy is in the ALPA Administrative Manual, Section 45, Part 4.
This policy applies if the acquiring ALPA carrier (here, PSA) agrees to employ pilots of the ALPA carrier transferring the aircraft (here, ENY) and to integrate them using the procedures of ALPA merger policy or a mutually satisfactory substitute process. It also provides that if the acquiring carrier does not intend to employ and integrate transferring pilots, “the President [of ALPA] shall urge the acquiring carrier to do so.”
Our carrier has not publicly stated its intent as to employing or integrating ENY pilots with respect to the announced transfer of 47 CRJ700s. ALPA’s President, Captain Tim Canoll is obligated by ALPA policy to “urge” our carrier “to do so.” Captain Canoll appropriately sought input from the ENY MEC Chairman and from me on this question.
In this context, I hope you will understand that my recent letter to Captain Canoll on this subject simply confirms that our ALPA President should carry out his own obligations under ALPA policy. Nothing more, nothing less. We should all have the reasonable expectation that our ALPA President will diligently follow ALPA policy, until we choose to change it going forward.
Fraternally,"
PART 1 –STATEMENT OF PURPOSE AND PREAMBLE
The purpose of ALPA Merger Policy is to provide protection for the employment interests of ALPA represented flight deck crew members by establishing orderly and expeditious processes for (1) concluding a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), (2) concluding the fair and equitable merger of seniority lists and (3) merging Master Executive Councils (MECs).
The policy rests on a number of premises:
• A successful merger requires the full support of ALPA MEC and Local Council leadership for its implementation.
• ALPA members will be kept informed and up to date through responsible communications, and an environment developed to foster unity and strength in negotiating the JCBA.
• Unity of purpose, based on close cooperation among Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) members and between the participating MECs, is essential to bringing about a work force that will obtain benefit from the merger through successful negotiations.
• Integration of seniority lists is one step in the entire merger process; the merger is one transaction, consisting of the seniority integration process, the contract negotiation process, the ratification process, and the transition process (both as to the carriers and ALPA governance), all leading to a single pilot group and MEC.
The purpose of ALPA Merger Policy is to provide protection for the employment interests of ALPA represented flight deck crew members by establishing orderly and expeditious processes for (1) concluding a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), (2) concluding the fair and equitable merger of seniority lists and (3) merging Master Executive Councils (MECs).
The policy rests on a number of premises:
• A successful merger requires the full support of ALPA MEC and Local Council leadership for its implementation.
• ALPA members will be kept informed and up to date through responsible communications, and an environment developed to foster unity and strength in negotiating the JCBA.
• Unity of purpose, based on close cooperation among Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) members and between the participating MECs, is essential to bringing about a work force that will obtain benefit from the merger through successful negotiations.
• Integration of seniority lists is one step in the entire merger process; the merger is one transaction, consisting of the seniority integration process, the contract negotiation process, the ratification process, and the transition process (both as to the carriers and ALPA governance), all leading to a single pilot group and MEC.
There is no list merger
There is no Merger of MEC's
That is the statement of purpose of the entire section 45 of the polcy manual. The PSA MEC has pulled subsections about transfer of aircraft and crews for their own purpose which is NOT supported by the purpose of the policy.
Their purpose is to avoid a staffing problem, which will prevent them from obtaining a better flow to AA.
Last edited by Cujo665; 05-15-2015 at 10:13 AM.
05-15-2015, 10:01 AM
#23
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Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 988
Originally Posted by Cujo665
That is the statement of purpose of the entire section 45 of the polcy manual. The PSA MEC has pulled subsections about transfer of aircraft and crews for their own purpose which is NOT supported by the purpose of the policy.
Their purpose is to avoid a staffing problem, which will prevent them from obtaining a better flow to AA.
Their purpose is to avoid a staffing problem, which will prevent them from obtaining a better flow to AA.
05-15-2015, 11:22 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CRJ-900/700/200 CA
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Cujo665
Incorrect, the subsection being refered to is in section 45. Section 45 starts off with this:
There is no JCBA
There is no list merger
There is no Merger of MEC's
That is the statement of purpose of the entire section 45 of the polcy manual. The PSA MEC has pulled subsections about transfer of aircraft and crews for their own purpose which is NOT supported by the purpose of the policy.
Their purpose is to avoid a staffing problem, which will prevent them from obtaining a better flow to AA.
There is no JCBA
There is no list merger
There is no Merger of MEC's
That is the statement of purpose of the entire section 45 of the polcy manual. The PSA MEC has pulled subsections about transfer of aircraft and crews for their own purpose which is NOT supported by the purpose of the policy.
Their purpose is to avoid a staffing problem, which will prevent them from obtaining a better flow to AA.
Regarding the staffing levels and attrition;
according to our recruiters they continue to fill the classes. The problem is that there are too few qualified FOs to upgrade. Therefor the hiring of DECs is imminent.
We have lost some 105 pilots to attrition this year alone. 30 of those failed out during training, both initial and upgrade. My seniority is around 900 and I have climbed 91 numbers since the year started.
So, my conclusion is that things at PSA are still moving. 50 new hires are coming in every month and about 25 pilots are leaving. That's a net 25 and slightly below what we need but with the buffer we have in training it will work out well with 3 aircraft deliveries per month. Training is catching up fast now and more and more Check Airmen are getting qualified. I don't see any direct problems at this point. It could be different 6-12 months down the road, who knows? Until then, this is a great opportunity for those who are joining the company, especially now when the DEC is being offered. Get in, get TPIC, move on
05-15-2015, 12:04 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by lakehouse
Do you have any accurate tracking of psa attrition? I don't think it's to majors. I know who united is hiring, my dads flying with them all the time, it's mainly expresjet fos and captains 50/50 and a few air willy captains or other sectors of the industry again 50/50 to what I said and other sectors.He hasn't even heard of a turd streek guy at all on the line there.
Further they have a reputation of being line cutters and there is a good understanding of what happened.
After hearing from a few people who interviewed with delta, I highly doubt many have gone to delta, as they are turning down some really good candidates.
So where are they going. JetBlue, spirit and vx? Big whoop so are handfuls of 4-6 year envoy, rah, and expresjet fos. Your going to find out most of those you can dangle a carrot at, already went. The better options keep getting better. The lateral moves are slowing rapidly.
However I won't disagree that the lateral move line is going to rapidly cease. If we hire DEC's we will get a short burst of people jumping from other regionals, but then I think that's pretty much going to be the end of experienced FO's jumping ship unless someone goes TU.
05-15-2015, 12:04 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,054
Originally Posted by Glofliser
I think you have to ask your MEC about the details. They should know. I just forwarded the e-mail we got from our MEC so you could read for yourself why this letter even was written.
Regarding the staffing levels and attrition;
according to our recruiters they continue to fill the classes. The problem is that there are too few qualified FOs to upgrade. Therefor the hiring of DECs is imminent.
We have lost some 105 pilots to attrition this year alone. 30 of those failed out during training, both initial and upgrade. My seniority is around 900 and I have climbed 91 numbers since the year started.
So, my conclusion is that things at PSA are still moving. 50 new hires are coming in every month and about 25 pilots are leaving. That's a net 25 and slightly below what we need but with the buffer we have in training it will work out well with 3 aircraft deliveries per month. Training is catching up fast now and more and more Check Airmen are getting qualified. I don't see any direct problems at this point. It could be different 6-12 months down the road, who knows? Until then, this is a great opportunity for those who are joining the company, especially now when the DEC is being offered. Get in, get TPIC, move on
Regarding the staffing levels and attrition;
according to our recruiters they continue to fill the classes. The problem is that there are too few qualified FOs to upgrade. Therefor the hiring of DECs is imminent.
We have lost some 105 pilots to attrition this year alone. 30 of those failed out during training, both initial and upgrade. My seniority is around 900 and I have climbed 91 numbers since the year started.
So, my conclusion is that things at PSA are still moving. 50 new hires are coming in every month and about 25 pilots are leaving. That's a net 25 and slightly below what we need but with the buffer we have in training it will work out well with 3 aircraft deliveries per month. Training is catching up fast now and more and more Check Airmen are getting qualified. I don't see any direct problems at this point. It could be different 6-12 months down the road, who knows? Until then, this is a great opportunity for those who are joining the company, especially now when the DEC is being offered. Get in, get TPIC, move on
If you have had 30 of your roughly 230 new hires fail out of training, that is a 13% failure rate. That is considered significant by the FAA. The norm is around 97%. I shudder to think how many oral and check ride busts those that have finished training have had their records tarnished with. Suffice to say that if your washout is 13%, then getting out of training without some sort of whack on your record is probably much lower than other regionals.
It's just not all adding up: one of your guys keeps coming in here boasting that the average new hire has 5000 hours at PSA, which is significantly above the norm, yet your pass rate is abysmal and your washout rate very high?
I believe your biggest problem is the FAA. There is no doubt that they are putting some serious heat on your training situation. I mean let's face it, you have like 50 guys in the training department a year and a half ago. Rookies teaching rookies isn't the best thing and it is apparently showing.
So why not steal some experienced CRJ pilots to keep the FAA happy? You are not helping envoy by doing this, you are hurting us and the industry.
But like PSAJOBS said, you are taking the planes anyway. Good luck. Hopefully the FAA keeps it all under control, and safe.
05-15-2015, 12:07 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,137
Originally Posted by PilotCrusader
So why not steal some experienced CRJ pilots to keep the FAA happy? You are not helping envoy by doing this, you are hurting us and the industry.
Good Luck!
05-15-2015, 12:16 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by FirstClass
Envoy had their chance 2 days ago, we saw the result play out on this forum. It's too late for them now, we are moving on.
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
05-15-2015, 12:37 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,054
Originally Posted by FirstClass
Envoy had their chance 2 days ago, we saw the result play out on this forum. It's too late for them now, we are moving on.
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
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