I do it all the time, at least twice per week no-problamo.

There is a big difference between federal government and a union. If anything, it's more like a neighborhood association because most people volunteer their time and aren't paid full time employees. That's why you need to get involved.

Thank you. Don't think he gets it though, so instead he comes on APC to complain instead. But if he wants to use the government scenario, how often do the people complaining ever write to their congressmen or senators and voice themselves. Never. People love to complain but hate to put in the time and effort to try to make the change. This entire thread makes my point perfectly.

It took me 15 years to get to where I am tonight. 15 years and 10,000 hours to get to $86/hour.
What gets me is the arrogance of some Union people that think that after taking a weekend negotiation seminar they think they are qualified to negotiate and write contracts.
Obviously the people that wrote our critical pay section were in way over their heads. They took the pilots groups money and we now have a contract worth less than the previous.
Travis has his plate full. He was left a crappy situation.
Yes ALPA national is to blame. If they can't proofread and write contracts that are enforceable then they need to do something else.

I have to respectively disagree with this statement. ALPA is not the problem, the weak pilot group is too blame. To many members do not know or understand the contract inside and out. They complain about the contract and union but can't even comprehend key contractual sections and don't understand how the union operates. If everyone studied the contract and knew it inside and out just like the POH and FOM, I can almost guarantee we would have a much stronger and more professional group.

I am pretty sure this is exactly why the union removed the forum. How dare anyone speak up? They want silence, and do not want their actions criticized

They tell us 4-6 months to get an answer regarding the arbitration.
It's now 8.

The union lied to us in December. They were negotiating with the company.

What other lies are they telling us?

That's some serious BS.
"Hey members.. you don't have a right to complain unless you're "involved". "

How do you know they were negotiating with the company and what about?

Actually, your lawyer wrote the contract, and it is enforceable. Your union leaders, not ALPA, just need to grow a pair and be willing to take it to an arbitrator.

And you voted in that contract that EVERYONE said was going to come back to haunt you. This forum was full of warning you to vote no. But, new jets!!

ALPA doesn't represent AA, and they represent the WO's so there isn't a conflict of interest. Sounds like a beat to death talking point.

This!!!!!!

Our contract has nothing to do with the 900's. Those came under a LOA which was after our 2013 contract.

Wow, just.......Wow.

This, ladies and gents, is why APC is a cesspool. People like this(and yes, you are one of the worst offenders when it comes to bashing, PSA especially) come on here spouting such absolutely uninformed nonsense it blows my mind.

You not only have no idea what you are talking about but you apparently did not even read one single previous post in this thread.

This case already went to an arbitrator, and, again, critical pay has nothing to do with our 900 LOA vote......at all.....nothing.

Run along.......You look like a moron

Because they told us. There were several fastread updates that claimed we were "waiting on the arbiter to make a decision." Then suddenly we got one that said "well, really we've had it for months because the arbiter told us to go back to the table."

Amazingly the forum was shut down shortly after people made that connection and got angry. Pilots started talking and the forum suddenly went away "because it was too expensive." The old regime lied.

There was also quite a long discussion on our company forum (conveniently inaccessible) in which pilots were requesting the arbiters info so that their lawyers could encourage him to make a decision. Those pilots were told to be patient and told contacting the arbiter wouldn't help or could make things worse. We now know, by the unions own admission, that we weren't waiting on the arbiter at all.

Just like when the TAs were being dissected and discussed (once they were finally released), the pilot group became angry with being lied to so the forum was shut down. There was zero heads up about the cost of the forum being a problem. Call me tinfoil hat crazy if it makes you feel better. I say bring back the forum (intact) to prove me wrong. The BS has to stop.

LMAO..... You guys really think an arbitrator is going to let some lawyer force him to make a decision.... "Better Call Saul"

Who knows? Might have been more effective than our representation. Or an outside lawsuit might actually see resolution.

This isn't a death case sentence. 8 months is too long for the arbitrator to come to a conclusion. An outside lawyer will have the ability to ensure their isn't foul play. We are talking about $19 million here. A year.
Our MEC has said that our internal message board was not approved by Alpa. Maybe that was one of the reasons it was removed. Either way our previous MEC was not honest, I doubt they are being honest about the web board being shut down either. If we lost the critical pay arbitration then so be it. Let's get it done and move on.

6 months is average for a decision from an arbitrator. 8 months is not unheard of at all.

And who would you bring a lawsuit against? ALPA for duty of fair representation because it's not going fast enough for you?

Have you ever heard of the railway labor act?

I'm pretty sure they were looking to bring suit against the company outside of ALPA but I'll defer to your expertise and experience on all things legal.

It is funny to see PSA pilots whining about their contract.

What's funny about it?

If you try hard to comprehend , you will find that this thread is primarily against the dysfunctional Union. Not the contract.
Alpa has been doing a very **** poor job of protecting Eagles jobs, they write Swiss cheese contracts. They lie to their members and offer very little return on the 2% dues.
I don't want to ever advance at the expense of others. Many at PSA feel the same as I do. I feel for my Eagle brothers and ALPA did a horrible job of working with management to protect their jobs.
We have street captains while they have 8 year f/o's. Could Alpa have done something? I don't know. Maybe the fluid contracts are to blame. But worrying about Iceland air when we have a civil war going on here is a misdirection of priorities. IMO

You mean to say, against the dysfunctional representation that you and your colleagues voted in. You voted in the contract. Did you read it? ALPA National isn't your union. How many times do we have to say that? They are primarily advisory and significant financial backing to your local. Quit blaming everyone else because you voted in a poo contract that Eagle voted down and thought you'd do the same.

What does our 2013 Contract have to do with you?

I'll take the PSA contract with critical pay over the 04 LXJT contract I worked under for many years for the schedule flexibility and soft time pay. You guys need to relax and have some patience, this arbitration was always going to take a while due to the magnitude of how much it costs the company. In the meantime stop voting for politicians that are anti labor and anti union so we can make legislative changes to the RLA that do not allow companies to get away with this stuff.

Preach it bro

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In my opinion it 90% likely we will never have critical pay in the same form it was in pre-October 14. Same with the chances of back pay.

I think the best situation for the pilot group and company is negotiating for 150% SDO with a 4-hour min day in exchange for eliminating critical. We would also have to get stronger language on reserve buffers. That is only my opinion. A lot of hard liners would probably disagree.

I agree. Also, enough with the time frame on min-day. You should get no less than 4 hours credit per day, regardless of start/stop time on your trip.

I say push it to 4.5-5 hour min days. A 16 hour minimum 4 day is crap. If we push the min to 18 hours we might actually get efficient schedules.

It's funny to see all you jealous idiots come on another companies thread to try and bash them.

You're an idiot, lack reading comprehension or both. Maybe some day you'll figure out the issue isn't the contract but rather the company willfully violating the contract. Keep crying on other companies threads.

4.5-5 hour min calendar day is not going to happen. But we could possibly get a min "average day" in the 4.5-5 hour daily range. I personally think a 4 hour min calendar day is more favorable than a 4.5 hour min average day. That's of course without the crappy carve outs we have now.

But you said they were violating it because it was weak language with loopholes. So, what is it? The company intentionally violating the contract or the company utilizing a loophole in weak language. You can't say the contract is awesome because it's strong and that it sucks because it's weak.

What critical pay loopholes? I've talked about loose reserve rule language. Keep reaching. Please show me your 12,000 page contract with all its solid language.

Then you should talk to Seaeye about how there are no loopholes. I'm not saying our contract is impeachable. I just find it funny that people like SeaCreature are coming on here saying that ALPA national bent them over by intentionally writing bad, loophole filled language. They couldn't possibly take any kind of responsibility for voting in a contract that was full of holes, according to them.

CBreezy, you worry too much about PSA contract! Don't you have a hobby or something else to do other than worry about company you even don't work for?

Did I ever say there weren't loopholes? You really do love to put words in people's mouths. Every contract is going to have imperfect language. Did you sit down with a contract lawyer and pour over every word before your last vote? I'm sure you relied on the junior low paid ALPA lawyer to examine your contract and catch all the problems. Then I'm sure you read it. I guess the rest of us can only hope to be as amazing as you with your ability to think up every possible loose interpretation or flat out violation that the companies might come up with.

You're still trying to make this a contract issue. Our critical pay arbitration is because the company is knowingly violating the contract clause they offered to us.

This is why things are done in secret. What happens at the very end of the negotiating process is the company lays their cards on the table. They will only agree to certain things if the language vague. This allows them to flip the switch at will. When times are good, pilots get what they want. But when times turn away from good, the company can start violating the contract and point to the weak language in the contract. Inevitably, the issue ends up as a grievance process and mediators agree with the companies position on the weak language. This is the part that is secret, the negotiators all know that this is how it will work, the pilots will not be told. It's a necessary evil to get the contract.

For many of you, this is the first time you have seen this. But this process and played out over and over again over the last 30 years. Its only new to you and your peers, those that have come before you have already moved on.

If everything went perfect, you wouldn't need alpa. Alpa needs you to keep needing them. Kind of like how Democrats operate, for example. Democrats will promise poor and minorities the world, will tell you how bad things are and how you need them to fight for you. But if they did get you what they promised, you would no longer vote democrat, presumably you are wealthy now and need to switch to being a Republican to preserve your wealth.