Originally Posted by wiz5422

Per diem shouldn't be included in your salary, it is for food etc. while out on the road. I wish people would stop counting it as salary, all it does is diminish our value and gives management more ammo to use for their inflated pay propaganda.

Originally Posted by 271c

Why wouldn't I include ongoing retention bonuses and per diem in my salary? Yes, some OT is picked up (every couple of months), and throughout the year it is usually available at some point. I don't claim ALL FOs clear 60k. But many do, or can. You can define your salary how you'd like. We can debate non-taxed per diem all day, but let's be real - it's take home pay (not even taxed!). Some choose to spend it going out to eat on the road, I choose to keep most of it. To each their own. Don't worry, if my "not guaranteed" retention bonuses stop coming in, I'll stop including them in my salary. For now, the money comes into my bank account -- feels an awful lot like salary.

College -- four years of it -- costs as much as ATP flight school. Most nurses nowadays go to four years (sure, a few still just do two). I'm feeling that debt burn as much as the next guy. But I knew the payoff at the end, and waited till wages rose to where they are (and hopefully higher soon).

Nursing life-responsibility versus pilot life-responsibility: Number of nurses sued compared to airline pilots, not even in the remote ballpark (you mentioned liability). Nurses deal with a few dying folks. We deal with dozens/hundreds of folks heading to Tampa. Kinda apples and oranges. A nurse making 100k? Not all that common, but it obviously happens. A pilot making 100k relatively early in his/her career? Happens all the time. That's a part of why I'm in this profession, and not a nurse!

Lastly, don't get bent out of shape about the bus driver analogy. I feel that my caveat -- that they require little technical skill -- made clear that I was using it for the limited purpose of explaining that "responsible for X lives" isn't always the greatest way of determining compensation. A bus driver (rightly) only earns 20k. We earn well above that.

Originally Posted by Taco280AI

Commissioned officer pay is pretty good. A 3 years in service O2 in their first unit gets $4586 plus $156 for 2 years of aviation pay. That is what they are taxed on, $4742 a month. If they're married and stationed in Colorado Springs, for example, they get $1587 in housing and another $254 for food, both not taxed.

Total compensation for a fairly new LT in their first unit is $6583 a month with only $4742 being taxed. Civilian equivalent being roughly $7k a month for a fairly new LT? And 30 days paid vacation a year. And zero medical/dental costs. They get paid pretty well. Plus they're getting paid to learn to fly in their first two years.

Now us Warrants, we don't get paid as well, but we're also not dealing with death by PowerPoint.

Originally Posted by 271c

That's your opinion. No more or less valid than mine. But I tell you what, when I had to decide whether to pursue an airline career, I darn well looked up the per diem rates, monthly TAFB values, etc. I spend very little on the road, going out to eat about the same as I would if I were at home. That's the case for a lot of folks. Others spend money at restaurants each day, using their per diem. That's fine too. But that's also 15-18 less days of food they need to buy at home...

What management uses for ammo isn't going to change based on my opinion that I post on this forum. I'm sure they're already WELL aware of our per diem compensation....

Originally Posted by sweetholyjesus

I think the caveat, or rather, comparison you're making is silly and incomplete. The problem you have is you're comparing this job to one profession or another. This job combines ALL of the highest responsibilities of the other professions you mentioned. We operate expensive complex equipment, we're responsible for hundreds of people, we require stupidly expensive training and experience, AND we spend half our lives away from home. We are grossly underpaid.

Ask the GoJet pilots how they feel about your "guaranteed" bonuses. What's your longevity and hourly rate?

Originally Posted by 271c

Ha -- I'm not required to define my salary the same way as you. If I choose to include an "ongoing," I didn't say "guaranteed" (I acknowledge it's "not guaranteed") bonus payment into my salary, I am free to do so. If I choose to bid low-value lines to leave room to pick up OT, I can do that as well. Sometimes I bid for a high-credit line instead and pick up no OT. So my hourly rate and min guarantee does little to define my salary.

And if you think you're grossly underpaid, I think that's a fair feeling to have. I wish I made more as well. I'm a proud union member just like you. The bonuses should be hourly rate increases. New hire bonuses should be spread amongst ALL pilots. QOL needs to improve across the board.

That said, I'm not starving. I waited to come to the airlines till pay went up, or at least trended that way. I had the chance to come in when wages were poverty. I chose to wait. As did thousands of others. Thousands more will come at the next raise. The free market is a great thing. So are unions. I love that in our industry we get the best of both.

Originally Posted by serthwrmtym

Pay is only one small factor...

- it takes too long due to the 1500 hour rule

- training is too expensive (well over $100k with a degree, over $80k without one)

- loans are very difficult and burdensome


Fix those 3 things, and you'll begin to ease the shortage and have enough pilots to meet demand.