shanejj

Ok, I'll admit that while at 500hours you might know alot directly from the books, but actuall skill and in flight decision making skills might not be so great...rather on the poor side....
but....you keep forgetting that there is a high captain next to you while has the FINAL AUTHORITY PERTAINING THE FLIGHT.
I think your confused that a 500hr should not be a captain....but a 500hr FO isn't that bad....
besides....if a 500hr kid get's hired by the airlines....It might be a good thing....train them while they're young...older guys might not wanna learn anymore...
maybe that's the Navy's logic....

ToiletDuck

I agree with what you're saying and no I didn't confuse anyone with saying at 500hrs put him as a captain.

However, there are times when an FO has to stepup and go to bat. What if the captain is making a bad decision? Will a young 500hr FO who doesn't really know any better stand up to him? Being young, with low time, and second guessing a captain could put you right on the crap list.

What happens if the capt all the suddent slouches over the controls because of a heart attack like the one that happened a few weeks ago? Things like this might be rare but that is exactly why an FO is needed.

The cockpit of a commuter with pax onboard isn't the place to teach. It's a place to operate. The captain already has plenty on his hands and needs the help of another. Not have to spend was little time he has to teach. Now if the aircrafts empty and he wants to brush up on a few things then have at it. But with pax in there they are both there to work.

shanejj

And the captain will get help from the FO
And what kind of help would that be?
Do the radios? Talk to FA's, set up approaches?
Do you think the captain is going to let to FO fly? Maybe a bit, but I'm pretty sure he's gna be flying most of the time....

And if the CA get's a heart attack again....thank god for low time pilots who've had the training to fly the a/c...or would you rather not have ANY FO on board because they were all low time in your book?

FighterHayabusa

my recently retired NWA CA neighbor said "a pilot with 500 hrs knows just enough to be dangerous".

I'm sure there are many stories here, like the one I heard from a Mesa jumpseater about an off the street Captain with 100 hours in the CRJ, barely an ATP, and their 300 hour TOTAL FO trying to stick a landing that was fast and long, and then trying to get off at the "usual" taxiway far too fast.

Frankly I'm disgusted by Mesa and their disregard for their passenger's safety.

Billy32

I am now a Captain, recently upgraded. The first part of my career was during the post 9/11 downturn and as a result I worked the kind of jobs that are no longer necessary for aspiring regional pilots. I can tell you that I learned a lot in my Cessna 172. I flew aerial mapping and traveled the country. Every day I went out I learned something, if it wasn't something new it was a better way of doing things. After about 2000 hours I was finally able to get a job hauling checks. I learned more in 9 months in my Cennsa 210than I had learned in all the years previously. Mostly what I learned was not to be cocky and always respect the weather. Being scared real good by a level 5 thunderstorm tends to humble a man. Then I moved to my current company and the learning continued. I flew with experienced Captains who helped hone my skills and taught me the tools of the trade. Every step of the way I have learned that there is a lot left to learn. Do not discount the time in a Cessna 172. Every step builds on the last, and I am better now for the years I spent single pilot in a 172 buzzing around the country.

BigWatchPilot

Dude...obvious you have not been an instructor at an airline or a LCA. How in the world would IOE get done with no pax on board??? And don't tell me that the F/O is ready to go after a few weeks in a simulator.

ErikCFII

A situation to ponder while considering this high/low flight time debate:

Captain: 3500-4000 hours, 1500+ in type; 1st month holding a line after 6+ on reserve
FO (me): 2500, 300 in type; 1st month holding line after 6 on reserve, former corporate part 91, flight instructor, and 4 month stint another 121 carrier

Trip details:
Captain: 4th leg (and final) of day 3 out of a 6 day trip (actually a 2 and a 4 day back to back)
FO: 1st leg of day 1 of a 4 day trip

Weather:
Night, Approx 2130
From 30 mins out to 10 mins out visibility dropped from 1 SM to 1/4 SM
Constant report of Vertical Vis 400', wind 270@12, Snow, Fog, Braking Action Good
IMC with Continuous St. Elmo's fire from 6000' down to about 2000', IMC continues to Minimums

Event:
Captain is PF
FO is PNF
Vectors to ILS Rwy 18
Runway hasn't been plowed since storm started 1.5 hrs prior
RVR reported at 1800, 2000, 1600, 2200, 2600, 2200, then 3000 all within about 4 minutes
FO calls "approach lights in sight" at 350 AGL
CA calls "continuing"
FO calls "runway in sight" at 200 AGL
CA calls "landing" and disengages the autopilot
Aircraft immediately starts going below glideslope
FO calls "glideslope"
CA calls "correcting"
Automated voice: SINK RATE, SINK RATE
CA calls "correcting"
FO notices pitch attitude is still unusually low
Automated voice: (very rapidly) 50,40,30,20,10
FO simultaneously states "get the nose up" and pulls the yoke aft to attain a normal pitch attitude
Aircraft touches down in a normal attitude without incident

Factors:
CA Fatigue
Weather
Difficulty visually adjusting from instruments to visual flight (Captain hadn't experienced this difficulty before, FO had)
Destabilization of approach after disengaging autopilot
First time Captain had shot an approach in conditions this extreme (conditions can get even worse!)


Things to do differently:
Leave autopilot engaged as long as possible to allow for adequate transition to visual flight
Hold and request runway to be plowed
Go missed when approach became unstable
I should have offered to fly the leg since I was just starting the trip and the Captain was at the end of a long day

I have my opinions regarding this low time debate. I prefer not to get into it. I just felt the best thing I could do would be to post an experience of mine and leave it up to others to consider the following:

Would a low time (you define low time) pilot have intervened as I did?
Would a pilot fresh off their first Part 121 Initial Operating Experience (regardless of prior experience) have intervened as I did?
Is it really the best idea to think "THE CAPTAIN IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY" and will take over if things go bad? The FIRST OFFICER had to take over in this case.

I feel there are elements of my prior flight experience that caused me to instinctively intervene as I did. Extensive flight instruction in IMC and single pilot IFR (personal time building and corporate) are at the top of my list.

Flight instructing (and self preservation) developed the instinct to take over as I did. I minimized the use of simulators and "view limiting" devices when I earned my IFR ticket and hunted for IMC as I built time. I also minimized the use of simulators and "view limiting devices" when I trained students. Doing so allowed me to experience the transition from IMC to VMC numerous times as both PF and PNF. I emphasized this critical phase of flight to students.

I know there are many of you out there with similar/other valuable backgrounds. I encourage you all to share challenging experiences, such as mine, and what helped you to handle the situation. Hopefully, we can encourage others to follow in our foot steps (traditional career building instead of pay for training) without talking down to them. Provide the facts, encourage unbiased thinking by providing unbiased key points to consider, and allow others to decide.

We aren't going to change this industry by bashing one another. We need to promote safe (not "adequate") standards and educate those considering a career in aviation. Promote quality, not quantity.

belliott

Are y'all still jammering about the mins to get hired? Jeez... lets end this now... if you have less than ATP mins you shouldn't be flying an RJ... if you have less than 1000 hrs you shouldn't be flying a Turboprop.... if you have your comm/inst/me ticket you should be sitting right seat in a night cargo plane gleaning as much info and experience from the dude sitting in the left............ by the way could I get hired at Mesa with my comm/inst/me ticket?! Hahaahahahahaahaha Mesa can go to he11!

C17MooseDriver

There's always exceptions, but more experienced pilots have at least proven themselves.

Flyby1206

How many hours do Navy pilots have when they take their first carrier landing? It cant be much more than 200hrs. Wouldnt this dictate that the training is what makes you eligible to handle a jet a/c at lower flight time?