ExpressJet and Chautauqua, and timing
03-30-2006, 12:54 PM
#101
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by de727ups
"This de727ups guy really has it out for anyone who paid to shorten their training time"
I just don't think guys with 380 hours have the experience to be in the right seat of an RJ. My opinion's based on past experience flying 727's and 757's for a major airline. That you paid for your "captain ride" at 380 hours and think that makes you hot stuff makes me laugh, too.
You make it sound like money is everything and have bought into the marketing slogans about getting on the list as fast as you can. Well, if everything goes perfect your whole career then it might be true. What they don't tell you is there are a lot of things that can shoot you down along the way. It's really a crapshoot. Luck plays a lot bigger role in the final paycheck than getting hired at your first regional six months quicker.
I just don't think guys with 380 hours have the experience to be in the right seat of an RJ. My opinion's based on past experience flying 727's and 757's for a major airline. That you paid for your "captain ride" at 380 hours and think that makes you hot stuff makes me laugh, too.
You make it sound like money is everything and have bought into the marketing slogans about getting on the list as fast as you can. Well, if everything goes perfect your whole career then it might be true. What they don't tell you is there are a lot of things that can shoot you down along the way. It's really a crapshoot. Luck plays a lot bigger role in the final paycheck than getting hired at your first regional six months quicker.
Last edited by mr2die4; 03-30-2006 at 02:27 PM.
03-31-2006, 05:59 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 135
PFTs miss the mark
Originally Posted by mr2die4
Wow, where the $^*# have I been. I should have posted on this thread a long time ago. I went to RAA, I got the Type, I got the job with 550-100. And I never had a single dificult test/exam/checkride after the training I got at Regional. Shortcut? Hell yeah it was. And it cost me too. But to each his own, thats the kind of pilot I opted to become. You can't make sweeping judgements of a pilot group because of the training they had, everyone is different. Punkpilot48 went to regional, in fact he is probably my best friend in the world right now, but he didn't do the type. He went thattaway, I went thissaway. Why does that make him a better, more respectable pilot? (no offense bro) These threads are difficult bc you have students, instructors, FOs, Captains, ERJ pilots, 777 pilots all arguing about one thing, and nobody has the same point of view, or the same opinion. There will never be a common ground, and thats all there is to it. From now till the invention of teleporters, pilots will be shunning those who had different training from themselves. Its really too bad seeing as how this really is a small industry, and we all hate each other. This de727ups guy really has it out for anyone who paid to shorten their training time. I made and investment in myself. I figure that the type rating got me an interview a year sooner. If that means I can earn pay as a captain later in life for an extra year, then how much does that get me? If I make 100K a year for an extra year, and paid 20K for a type, then I guess I'm 80K ahead. The type is not for everyone, but if you can swing it, you can get yourself a job much faster. I hope everyone has fun tearing my post up calling me a new hire POS, drinking the kool aid and all that crap. Quit b!tching about everything ad just do your f!ing job. In a world with "hundreds of pilots trying to get a job" how are you supposed to stick out and get hired? In my class at ExpressJet there were 16 new hires. 14 of us were grads of these "sh!tty PFT schools" and guess what *********s, we all passed. How about those two guys that were CFIs for three years? The f-ing failed! They cost the company thousands of extra dollars bc of the contract that guaranteed them extra training if they failed a checkride. The checkairmen were relieved when they asked if we had been through a "regional primer course" at a big flight school. It doesnt take long in this industry to realize that you are fed a load of bu!!****. Weed through it and find the training that suits you best. Regional tells you a lot of lies, but they still have good training, just dont expect to stick with the timeline.
For those of you who think that their current program is too short, get this. They recently recieved a 142 school rating allowing them to train a pilot from zero to commercial multi instrument with less than 100 hours in an aircraft, in about three months, then back to the good ol' 141 program for the CFI, andother three months, and then three months for the airline transition course. Yep, get used to it, 9 month FOs!!!
Oh, based on personal experience, when I was sitting in the left seat of that CRJ sim, with three FAA examiners (my FO/instructor, my examiner, and his examiner) I felt pretty damn good when they told me I just passed a Captain ride with 380 hours. They also laughed with me about the fact that it could be years before I could use my type rating as a captain.
For those of you who think that their current program is too short, get this. They recently recieved a 142 school rating allowing them to train a pilot from zero to commercial multi instrument with less than 100 hours in an aircraft, in about three months, then back to the good ol' 141 program for the CFI, andother three months, and then three months for the airline transition course. Yep, get used to it, 9 month FOs!!!
Oh, based on personal experience, when I was sitting in the left seat of that CRJ sim, with three FAA examiners (my FO/instructor, my examiner, and his examiner) I felt pretty damn good when they told me I just passed a Captain ride with 380 hours. They also laughed with me about the fact that it could be years before I could use my type rating as a captain.
Let me start off by saying I'm not a big PFT basher, although I don't have as much confidence in a 500 hr McWonder PFT person when flying the actual line and not some simulator. Quite frankly, I don't respect PFTs a whole lot because you all obviously look at the profession as something that you can buy your way into like it is some vocational job. You know Truck Driver’s Training Institute, but in your case Airline SIC School (ASS).
Yeah you can pass a 121 sim ride and training, but how will you handle a series of "real" aircraft emergencies, "real" medical emergencies, "real" severe weather like TS or 1/8 mile blowing snow ILS to minimum approaches, and commanding a revenue flight BY YOURSELF if God forbid the Captain croaks in flight.
A 121 check ride is really pretty easy, especially the more you do them. They are all virtually the same. However, line flying with live souls onboard requires experience to get the job accomplished in the safest possible manner when the sh&t REALLY hits the fan. You can teach a monkey to pass a sim ride, but only training AND EXPERIENCE will ensure the safety of flight when the chips are down, and at 500 hours of PFT time, I don't believe you guys are the most qualified people to be out there when the dookey comes flying at you on the line.
Sorry to come across like this, but the arrogance and disrespect in the tone of your post struck a nerve. Also, the fact that you PFT guys miss the mark on most of the points that are being made by the more experienced pilots on this board baffles me. Passing that sim ride and having people (checkairmen or whoever and yourself as well) pat you on the back for doing so, again, means NOTHING when it comes to being able to conduct a flight (possibly by yourself) in a safe manner when things go horrifically wrong or just plain old wrong.
The point here is: when it comes to being a professional airline pilot, it’s NOT about being able to pass a sim ride and training while getting kudos, but it’s about SAFETY. The safety of your crew, and more importantly the safety of the people who are counting on YOU to get them somewhere without making a smoking hole in the ground. That sir requires respect for the profession and not just a bunch of money to buy your way in, and I would be willing to bet that is what bothers most of the folks you hear bashing PFT. It's not that they are “jealous” that you had it easier as a PFT. It’s that you obviously don’t respect the profession.
P.S. You mention that the airline industry is a small world, or something to that affect. You are absolutely correct, so be careful who you p!$$ off in the industry.
Last edited by directbears; 03-31-2006 at 06:03 AM.
03-31-2006, 08:33 AM
#104
Guest
Posts: n/a
Your right, everyone that paid for training should just throw in the towel, we obviously only think this a big game; you know, like a hobby. The whole place would be better off if tomorrow all the young guys who worked thier asses off to get thier jobs didn't show up for work.
Now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum, everyone hates each other. I'll stick the company website, where my fellow pilots aren't ****ed bc I went to a flight school.
Now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum, everyone hates each other. I'll stick the company website, where my fellow pilots aren't ****ed bc I went to a flight school.
03-31-2006, 09:30 AM
#105
Guest
Posts: n/a
Let me sart by saying I am in the middle of career change from the health care field to the airlines and I am pretty suprised by all the bashing on this forum. It reminds me of high school only in this case some posts are from men in their 40's and older.
Many of you bash the PFT guys (like me BTW) and tell us to "go through the front door" and "pay your dues". What I don't get is how flying more often than 2-3 times per week to build time makes me a sellout. I understand instructing is a great way to build experience and I plan on doing that but don't you think that at some point past the 600TT mark a CFI's knowledge base is ready for more of a challenge... ready to move to the next level?
If that next level is not the regionals then what is it? Seriously, if there is something else I am not aware of it. Are you talking 135 cargo stuff?
I do understand guys that don't care what they make as a FO is really hurting the industry and I wish that would change. What I don't understand is why using a school to further your knowledge is bad. I have to do all the same check rides as the non PFT guys. And really everyone is a PFT guy. The biggest difference is # of days flying per week.
You guys make it seem like you would "like" an FO with 600TT if it took them 8-10 years to get it but if they got that in 2 years they are losers.
Enlighten me
Many of you bash the PFT guys (like me BTW) and tell us to "go through the front door" and "pay your dues". What I don't get is how flying more often than 2-3 times per week to build time makes me a sellout. I understand instructing is a great way to build experience and I plan on doing that but don't you think that at some point past the 600TT mark a CFI's knowledge base is ready for more of a challenge... ready to move to the next level?
If that next level is not the regionals then what is it? Seriously, if there is something else I am not aware of it. Are you talking 135 cargo stuff?
I do understand guys that don't care what they make as a FO is really hurting the industry and I wish that would change. What I don't understand is why using a school to further your knowledge is bad. I have to do all the same check rides as the non PFT guys. And really everyone is a PFT guy. The biggest difference is # of days flying per week.
You guys make it seem like you would "like" an FO with 600TT if it took them 8-10 years to get it but if they got that in 2 years they are losers.
Enlighten me
03-31-2006, 09:38 AM
#106
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,290
Originally Posted by mr2die4
Wow, where the $^*# have I been. I should have posted on this thread a long time ago. I went to RAA, I got the Type, I got the job with 550-100. And I never had a single dificult test/exam/checkride after the training I got at Regional. Shortcut? Hell yeah it was. And it cost me too. But to each his own, thats the kind of pilot I opted to become. You can't make sweeping judgements of a pilot group because of the training they had, everyone is different. Punkpilot48 went to regional, in fact he is probably my best friend in the world right now, but he didn't do the type. He went thattaway, I went thissaway. Why does that make him a better, more respectable pilot? (no offense bro) These threads are difficult bc you have students, instructors, FOs, Captains, ERJ pilots, 777 pilots all arguing about one thing, and nobody has the same point of view, or the same opinion. There will never be a common ground, and thats all there is to it. From now till the invention of teleporters, pilots will be shunning those who had different training from themselves. Its really too bad seeing as how this really is a small industry, and we all hate each other. This de727ups guy really has it out for anyone who paid to shorten their training time. I made and investment in myself. I figure that the type rating got me an interview a year sooner. If that means I can earn pay as a captain later in life for an extra year, then how much does that get me? If I make 100K a year for an extra year, and paid 20K for a type, then I guess I'm 80K ahead. The type is not for everyone, but if you can swing it, you can get yourself a job much faster. I hope everyone has fun tearing my post up calling me a new hire POS, drinking the kool aid and all that crap. Quit b!tching about everything ad just do your f!ing job. In a world with "hundreds of pilots trying to get a job" how are you supposed to stick out and get hired? In my class at ExpressJet there were 16 new hires. 14 of us were grads of these "sh!tty PFT schools" and guess what *********s, we all passed. How about those two guys that were CFIs for three years? The f-ing failed! They cost the company thousands of extra dollars bc of the contract that guaranteed them extra training if they failed a checkride. The checkairmen were relieved when they asked if we had been through a "regional primer course" at a big flight school. It doesnt take long in this industry to realize that you are fed a load of bu!!****. Weed through it and find the training that suits you best. Regional tells you a lot of lies, but they still have good training, just dont expect to stick with the timeline.
For those of you who think that their current program is too short, get this. They recently recieved a 142 school rating allowing them to train a pilot from zero to commercial multi instrument with less than 100 hours in an aircraft, in about three months, then back to the good ol' 141 program for the CFI, andother three months, and then three months for the airline transition course. Yep, get used to it, 9 month FOs!!!
Oh, based on personal experience, when I was sitting in the left seat of that CRJ sim, with three FAA examiners (my FO/instructor, my examiner, and his examiner) I felt pretty damn good when they told me I just passed a Captain ride with 380 hours. They also laughed with me about the fact that it could be years before I could use my type rating as a captain.
For those of you who think that their current program is too short, get this. They recently recieved a 142 school rating allowing them to train a pilot from zero to commercial multi instrument with less than 100 hours in an aircraft, in about three months, then back to the good ol' 141 program for the CFI, andother three months, and then three months for the airline transition course. Yep, get used to it, 9 month FOs!!!
Oh, based on personal experience, when I was sitting in the left seat of that CRJ sim, with three FAA examiners (my FO/instructor, my examiner, and his examiner) I felt pretty damn good when they told me I just passed a Captain ride with 380 hours. They also laughed with me about the fact that it could be years before I could use my type rating as a captain.
1) Lack of flying experience. A chimpanzee can be trained to do flows in an RJ cockpit, but he can't operate in the real aviation environment.
2) They are often pumped so full of BS propaganda from their training program that they show up on line thinking they are actually the hand-picked chosen few...yes this does happen.
3) They degrade the industry because they pay to get a job instead of getting paid (yes CFIs get paid).
4) Young ones with lots of money (and you know where it came from) often have either an intolerable attitude, or low forcefulness and self-confidence. Neither of these are recommended personalities for aviation safety.
5) Professional pilots need to have a higher level of responsibility and maturity then the population as a whole...the historical career tracks to the profession ensured that (military, CFI, freight). PFT does not.
6) Also, impulse control seems to be lacking in many cases...PFTers often post long, ranting, expletive-filled diatribes.
7) Pilots should not pay for aircraft-specific training, period. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
03-31-2006, 10:30 AM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"Now I remember why I stopped posting on this forum, everyone hates each other. I'll stick the company website, where my fellow pilots aren't ****ed bc I went to a flight school."
HAHA. Sticking your head in the sand isn't going to help. I don't hate anyone except for Gulfstreamers. I do, however, disagree with a lot I hear from folks who like these direct track programs. You seem to think your special school, or way of training, is a substitute for experience. I'm just not buying it...
HAHA. Sticking your head in the sand isn't going to help. I don't hate anyone except for Gulfstreamers. I do, however, disagree with a lot I hear from folks who like these direct track programs. You seem to think your special school, or way of training, is a substitute for experience. I'm just not buying it...
03-31-2006, 10:37 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"What I don't get is how flying more often than 2-3 times per week to build time makes me a sellout"
It doesn't, where are you getting that idea?
"I understand instructing is a great way to build experience and I plan on doing that but don't you think that at some point past the 600TT mark a CFI's knowledge base is ready for more of a challenge... ready to move to the next level"
Yes. Everybody's "point" is different. I don't know where to draw the line but 250-400 hours isn't it before going to the right seat of a jet.
"What I don't understand is why using a school to further your knowledge is bad"
No idea what you mean by that.
It doesn't, where are you getting that idea?
"I understand instructing is a great way to build experience and I plan on doing that but don't you think that at some point past the 600TT mark a CFI's knowledge base is ready for more of a challenge... ready to move to the next level"
Yes. Everybody's "point" is different. I don't know where to draw the line but 250-400 hours isn't it before going to the right seat of a jet.
"What I don't understand is why using a school to further your knowledge is bad"
No idea what you mean by that.
03-31-2006, 11:07 AM
#109
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Problems with PFTers:
1) Lack of flying experience. A chimpanzee can be trained to do flows in an RJ cockpit, but he can't operate in the real aviation environment.
2) They are often pumped so full of BS propaganda from their training program that they show up on line thinking they are actually the hand-picked chosen few...yes this does happen.
3) They degrade the industry because they pay to get a job instead of getting paid (yes CFIs get paid).
4) Young ones with lots of money (and you know where it came from) often have either an intolerable attitude, or low forcefulness and self-confidence. Neither of these are recommended personalities for aviation safety.
5) Professional pilots need to have a higher level of responsibility and maturity then the population as a whole...the historical career tracks to the profession ensured that (military, CFI, freight). PFT does not.
6) Also, impulse control seems to be lacking in many cases...PFTers often post long, ranting, expletive-filled diatribes.
7) Pilots should not pay for aircraft-specific training, period. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
1) Lack of flying experience. A chimpanzee can be trained to do flows in an RJ cockpit, but he can't operate in the real aviation environment.
2) They are often pumped so full of BS propaganda from their training program that they show up on line thinking they are actually the hand-picked chosen few...yes this does happen.
3) They degrade the industry because they pay to get a job instead of getting paid (yes CFIs get paid).
4) Young ones with lots of money (and you know where it came from) often have either an intolerable attitude, or low forcefulness and self-confidence. Neither of these are recommended personalities for aviation safety.
5) Professional pilots need to have a higher level of responsibility and maturity then the population as a whole...the historical career tracks to the profession ensured that (military, CFI, freight). PFT does not.
6) Also, impulse control seems to be lacking in many cases...PFTers often post long, ranting, expletive-filled diatribes.
7) Pilots should not pay for aircraft-specific training, period. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
2. Since when was being confident and self-assured a bad thing? There are cocky high-time pilots (just check out some of the posts on this thread) and cocky low-time pilots, this has to do more with a pilot's personality rather than his actual flying experience.
3. Most pilots who attend PFTs are flight instructors, and they usually become flight instructors sooner than those who train in other ways. Just because a pilot trains at a PFT doesn' mean they don't flight instruct. They also get paid for being a flight instructor, and often at a higher rate and are able to flight instruct more often.
4. This is ridiculous! Plenty of pilots who fly at PFTs don't have alot of money and take out loans, just as there are many rich folks who train at FBOs or other places. Whether or not someone has money is completely irrelevant to what kind of pilot they wil be.
5. Obviously, working as a flight instructor for an extra 500 hours does not give you a "higher level of maturity" as evidenced by the posts on this thread. Maturity is not gained solely through being a flight instructor for extended periods of time. This again is a generalization, and it is ridiculous to claim that low time instructors are necessarily immature.
6. Look at the boards- there are just as many rants and expletives made by high time pilots. AGain- a generalization.
7. Why shouldn't a pilot pay for a type rating? People across the nation in may different walks of life make investments in their careers and educations. Lawyers often pay tens of thousands of dollars for LLMs in specific areas of law, Professors pay for additional masters degree that are "unnecessary" but may open doors, employees pay for unnecessary degrees that may help in job protection. Why is it so ridiculous for a pilot to make the same kind of investment? Airlines know that pilots with type ratings are traininable and are more likely to hire them.
Is an extra 500 or 600 hours training in a single engine aircraft really so valuable that it means the difference between a good pilot and a bad pilot? Many of the high time pilots have accused low time pilots of being in it only for the money and degrading the profession, but that is silly. Someone plannign their life and career must make decisions on how they can make the best of their career. If given the opportunity to get into a profession that is based PURELY on seniority a year or two earlier, then why would they pass that up? I do not see how this degrades the profession in any way. Putting more pilots in the pool means employers have more to choose from, can be more selective which results in better pilots. Obviously, employers do not see low hour as a hinderance. If they did, they would not hire low time pilots, the demand would decrease, and pilots would stop paying for type ratings. If you are going to knock low-time pilots, why don't you grumpy high-timers provide a little logic to back up what you are saying instead of drawing an arbitrary line in the sand. Is 800 okay? 900? 1000 tt? or should they fly for 10 years in a cessna before they are "ready" to be a "real pilot"?
03-31-2006, 11:28 AM
#110
Guest
Posts: n/a
To all young pilots out there:
FNG's, just so you know: there are also old timers like me in the industry that don't hack you apart as some of us, but rather welcome you to aviation!
I guess you already figured out by now that it's not such a good idea to start a thread on this forum as a PFT with low times. Because as you can tell, the world starts falling apart and people that claim they're the real pilots, because they earned their way to a job by flying lot's of hours, begin slicing you in half.
It seems to me that people forget lot's of times that airlines are not looking for just pilots, but employees as well. Everybody can fly an airplane if you train them. But not everybody is a reliable employee. And it turns out that training centers like RAA provide good reliable employees, hence why the airlines like to pick up these graduates. Also, we tend to forget that it's the airlines that hire. They set the standard. It would be ridiculous not to take advantage of programs that get you a job fast.
In my time, they didn't have these training centers. I also worked my way to a job by flying scrap metal for years. I definitely would have opted for an institution like RAA or any other school for that matter if I would have had a choice in my "young" days.
As far as people stating that you, as a low timer or PFT, will be pushed aside by one of your own... well that's bogus to me. We're in a competitive market. You don't have to be a pilot! If you don't like it, SHUT THE HECK UP AND MOVE ON TO ANOTHER INDUSTRY! All this whining at low time pilots is not going to change the world! Be creative, stay positive and if you love flying, stay competitive. Don't start throwing rocks at newbie’s because you're frustrated. If you want to earn big bucks, go get your MBA and start working a desk job. Being a pilot is not about earning big money. Those days are long over. And whining at new pilots is not going to change anything. It's just going to make the pilot industry look really pathetic.
Stay positive, have the right attitude and you'll get where you want. Don't ever turn into a whiner, that's the real loser right there! Respect your captain. A good captain will teach you well and make you a better pilot. After all, he does have more experience.
Wish you all the best!
I guess you already figured out by now that it's not such a good idea to start a thread on this forum as a PFT with low times. Because as you can tell, the world starts falling apart and people that claim they're the real pilots, because they earned their way to a job by flying lot's of hours, begin slicing you in half.
It seems to me that people forget lot's of times that airlines are not looking for just pilots, but employees as well. Everybody can fly an airplane if you train them. But not everybody is a reliable employee. And it turns out that training centers like RAA provide good reliable employees, hence why the airlines like to pick up these graduates. Also, we tend to forget that it's the airlines that hire. They set the standard. It would be ridiculous not to take advantage of programs that get you a job fast.
In my time, they didn't have these training centers. I also worked my way to a job by flying scrap metal for years. I definitely would have opted for an institution like RAA or any other school for that matter if I would have had a choice in my "young" days.
As far as people stating that you, as a low timer or PFT, will be pushed aside by one of your own... well that's bogus to me. We're in a competitive market. You don't have to be a pilot! If you don't like it, SHUT THE HECK UP AND MOVE ON TO ANOTHER INDUSTRY! All this whining at low time pilots is not going to change the world! Be creative, stay positive and if you love flying, stay competitive. Don't start throwing rocks at newbie’s because you're frustrated. If you want to earn big bucks, go get your MBA and start working a desk job. Being a pilot is not about earning big money. Those days are long over. And whining at new pilots is not going to change anything. It's just going to make the pilot industry look really pathetic.
Stay positive, have the right attitude and you'll get where you want. Don't ever turn into a whiner, that's the real loser right there! Respect your captain. A good captain will teach you well and make you a better pilot. After all, he does have more experience.
Wish you all the best!
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