ExpressJet and Chautauqua, and timing
10-15-2005, 03:33 PM
#21
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Spamman/Warning
Spam and Warning
It seems like you guys are getting the picture. Someday even SWA and the others will be paying less than they are now, so you are dreaming if you think that the regionals will ever make a good place to work. Someone asked "where will the cycle end"? The writing is on the wall. Anyone can see it if you are interested in looking. The regionals and commuters have always payed low and always will. They are entry level jobs and while there you need to motivate to move on as fast as possible. It is even more foolish to think that someone who can get hired with only 600 TT to expect to get anything more than total abuse in all categories. You guys are living in a dream land. Get your 1000 hours of turbine PIC and get out. There is nothing else there for you. I don't know what else to say if you can't see it for yourself. The sun is setting on our profession there are too many true believers out there. Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
PS Warning, I added the following from dictionary.com for your convienience.
ir·re·gard·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-gärdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Probably blend of irrespective, and regardless.]
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
It seems like you guys are getting the picture. Someday even SWA and the others will be paying less than they are now, so you are dreaming if you think that the regionals will ever make a good place to work. Someone asked "where will the cycle end"? The writing is on the wall. Anyone can see it if you are interested in looking. The regionals and commuters have always payed low and always will. They are entry level jobs and while there you need to motivate to move on as fast as possible. It is even more foolish to think that someone who can get hired with only 600 TT to expect to get anything more than total abuse in all categories. You guys are living in a dream land. Get your 1000 hours of turbine PIC and get out. There is nothing else there for you. I don't know what else to say if you can't see it for yourself. The sun is setting on our profession there are too many true believers out there. Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
PS Warning, I added the following from dictionary.com for your convienience.
ir·re·gard·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-gärdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Probably blend of irrespective, and regardless.]
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
10-15-2005, 03:42 PM
#22
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
Just to set the record straight, I was a 600 hour wonder (Aviation Degree, Intern, 660TT/68ME/+ 45 level C/D sim time- that I didn't pay for BTW). I was hired into the CRJ and found that my QOL/Pay was quite sufficient. Of course those were different days.
The continual downturn is why I bailed out of the airlines in the first place. Forget flying for the majors... find a good corporate gig. Pays better, home just about every night, more days off, and better catering.
The continual downturn is why I bailed out of the airlines in the first place. Forget flying for the majors... find a good corporate gig. Pays better, home just about every night, more days off, and better catering.
10-15-2005, 03:47 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: midsize
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Spam and Warning
It seems like you guys are getting the picture. Someday even SWA and the others will be paying less than they are now, so you are dreaming if you think that the regionals will ever make a good place to work. Someone asked "where will the cycle end"? The writing is on the wall. Anyone can see it if you are interested in looking. The regionals and commuters have always payed low and always will. They are entry level jobs and while there you need to motivate to move on as fast as possible. It is even more foolish to think that someone who can get hired with only 600 TT to expect to get anything more than total abuse in all categories. You guys are living in a dream land. Get your 1000 hours of turbine PIC and get out. There is nothing else there for you. I don't know what else to say if you can't see it for yourself. The sun is setting on our profession there are too many true believers out there. Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
PS Warning, I added the following from dictionary.com for your convienience.
ir·re·gard·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-gärdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Probably blend of irrespective, and regardless.]
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
It seems like you guys are getting the picture. Someday even SWA and the others will be paying less than they are now, so you are dreaming if you think that the regionals will ever make a good place to work. Someone asked "where will the cycle end"? The writing is on the wall. Anyone can see it if you are interested in looking. The regionals and commuters have always payed low and always will. They are entry level jobs and while there you need to motivate to move on as fast as possible. It is even more foolish to think that someone who can get hired with only 600 TT to expect to get anything more than total abuse in all categories. You guys are living in a dream land. Get your 1000 hours of turbine PIC and get out. There is nothing else there for you. I don't know what else to say if you can't see it for yourself. The sun is setting on our profession there are too many true believers out there. Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
PS Warning, I added the following from dictionary.com for your convienience.
ir·re·gard·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-gärdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Probably blend of irrespective, and regardless.]
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
10-15-2005, 03:49 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Spam and Warning
It seems like you guys are getting the picture. Someday even SWA and the others will be paying less than they are now, so you are dreaming if you think that the regionals will ever make a good place to work. Someone asked "where will the cycle end"? The writing is on the wall. Anyone can see it if you are interested in looking. The regionals and commuters have always payed low and always will. They are entry level jobs and while there you need to motivate to move on as fast as possible. It is even more foolish to think that someone who can get hired with only 600 TT to expect to get anything more than total abuse in all categories. You guys are living in a dream land. Get your 1000 hours of turbine PIC and get out. There is nothing else there for you. I don't know what else to say if you can't see it for yourself. The sun is setting on our profession there are too many true believers out there. Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
.
It seems like you guys are getting the picture. Someday even SWA and the others will be paying less than they are now, so you are dreaming if you think that the regionals will ever make a good place to work. Someone asked "where will the cycle end"? The writing is on the wall. Anyone can see it if you are interested in looking. The regionals and commuters have always payed low and always will. They are entry level jobs and while there you need to motivate to move on as fast as possible. It is even more foolish to think that someone who can get hired with only 600 TT to expect to get anything more than total abuse in all categories. You guys are living in a dream land. Get your 1000 hours of turbine PIC and get out. There is nothing else there for you. I don't know what else to say if you can't see it for yourself. The sun is setting on our profession there are too many true believers out there. Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
.
How does that affect the majors? Simple -- Less flying for them
How would that affect the regionals? Simple -- More flying for them
What does that mean for you? Simple -- You wil be stuck at a regional making peanuts with no chance to leave.
You talk about a stepping stone. What you don't realize is that your attitude and others like you are making the regionals a stepping stone - just in the wrong direction.
Last edited by spamman; 10-15-2005 at 03:52 PM.
10-15-2005, 06:07 PM
#26
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Spam and Warning
Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.
SkyHigh
The majors are failing and pay scales are coming down across the board. Somewhere along the line the pilots of the industry need to stop the trend. The largest part of that effort is educating people like the one that started this thread.
Last edited by FlyerJosh; 10-16-2005 at 11:22 AM.
10-16-2005, 06:52 AM
#29
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Warning, Apamm, Josh
Hey Guys,
We are all on the same team. I don't like it any more than you. Back when I got my first job at the regionals I was the youngest in my class at 28 and had the lowest time with 3800 hours. It was a real job that they only gave to grown ups, and even then the pay was miserable. Today flying for the regionals is like working for McDonalds. They take young 20 year olds and pay them nothing. (At least McDonalds gives you a food discount.) Management has learned that it is better to hire young kids since most will not complain and don't need much to live on. You guys earn less than if you were privates in the Army. I blame some the advertisers on this forum. Flight Safeties Airline Academy offers zero to FO in 12 months. I saw another one called Lana something that offered financing and a "pay later" option. Student loans in colleges across the nation will cover much of the bill for training. Why would an airline pay any more? There is a constant flood of new pilots hitting the street every week.
Flight time and the value of flight experience had plunged. Back when I started if you had 1000 hours of piston multi PIC and sat in a Learjet once you were a hot prospect. The phone was ringing from UAL AA DAL UPS. These days you need 1000 of RJ PIC and a letter of recommendation from the president of the United States. Just a few years ago no one had jet time. Today anyone with 600 hours can be sitting in the right seat of a 50 seat jet. The time doesn't mean anything anymore. Who cares?
Josh is right. I was a professional pilot for almost 20 years. My resume includes over 12 different employers. I worked for regionals, national jet airlines, corporate, charter, medevac and of course CFI gigs. I have over 6400 hours of time. Most of that is in multi engine jets or turboprops. I couldn't convert to a major airline while young enough. Most of my peers couldn't do it either. Out of my graduating class of 30 from college only one is still flying.
The decline in our industry has been in the works for a long time. It is not a trend or a swing of the pendulum but the normal devolution of an industry that has seen its day. Of course there will always be flying but the pay will sink to the legal bottom and stay there until the day comes when the applications stop coming in.
There are thousands upon thousands of furloughed or unemployed pilots on the street and more are on the way. NWA has learned how to break the mechanics union and I am sure they are putting together a plan to do the same to the pilots if they put up a fight. Other airlines will learn from their example.
Honestly, I wish things were different. I wish we all could have good jobs that we enjoyed and paid well. Step back and take a look. It is not going to happen. Hoping that Mesa will raise its pay is like asking McDonalds to pay a fry cook 30K/year and offer a full benefits package. My advise is to get in, build your 1000 hours of PIC time have your fun. Then try for a job at the majors or perhaps corporate and if it doesnt work out pick a date that is the end and leave. Get a real job outside of aviation. The pay is much better and it isn't as bad as you might imagine.
SkyHigh
We are all on the same team. I don't like it any more than you. Back when I got my first job at the regionals I was the youngest in my class at 28 and had the lowest time with 3800 hours. It was a real job that they only gave to grown ups, and even then the pay was miserable. Today flying for the regionals is like working for McDonalds. They take young 20 year olds and pay them nothing. (At least McDonalds gives you a food discount.) Management has learned that it is better to hire young kids since most will not complain and don't need much to live on. You guys earn less than if you were privates in the Army. I blame some the advertisers on this forum. Flight Safeties Airline Academy offers zero to FO in 12 months. I saw another one called Lana something that offered financing and a "pay later" option. Student loans in colleges across the nation will cover much of the bill for training. Why would an airline pay any more? There is a constant flood of new pilots hitting the street every week.
Flight time and the value of flight experience had plunged. Back when I started if you had 1000 hours of piston multi PIC and sat in a Learjet once you were a hot prospect. The phone was ringing from UAL AA DAL UPS. These days you need 1000 of RJ PIC and a letter of recommendation from the president of the United States. Just a few years ago no one had jet time. Today anyone with 600 hours can be sitting in the right seat of a 50 seat jet. The time doesn't mean anything anymore. Who cares?
Josh is right. I was a professional pilot for almost 20 years. My resume includes over 12 different employers. I worked for regionals, national jet airlines, corporate, charter, medevac and of course CFI gigs. I have over 6400 hours of time. Most of that is in multi engine jets or turboprops. I couldn't convert to a major airline while young enough. Most of my peers couldn't do it either. Out of my graduating class of 30 from college only one is still flying.
The decline in our industry has been in the works for a long time. It is not a trend or a swing of the pendulum but the normal devolution of an industry that has seen its day. Of course there will always be flying but the pay will sink to the legal bottom and stay there until the day comes when the applications stop coming in.
There are thousands upon thousands of furloughed or unemployed pilots on the street and more are on the way. NWA has learned how to break the mechanics union and I am sure they are putting together a plan to do the same to the pilots if they put up a fight. Other airlines will learn from their example.
Honestly, I wish things were different. I wish we all could have good jobs that we enjoyed and paid well. Step back and take a look. It is not going to happen. Hoping that Mesa will raise its pay is like asking McDonalds to pay a fry cook 30K/year and offer a full benefits package. My advise is to get in, build your 1000 hours of PIC time have your fun. Then try for a job at the majors or perhaps corporate and if it doesnt work out pick a date that is the end and leave. Get a real job outside of aviation. The pay is much better and it isn't as bad as you might imagine.
SkyHigh
10-16-2005, 11:17 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Posts: 185
exactly...
EXACTLY Skyhigh
I don't know what the lure is anymore. Years ago things were obviously different. Now its just a joke. I was tempted to post a question to everyone...Why are there so many people that want to "fly for a living" when you know how crappy it is? Maybe they are blind and think that things will change for the better and go back to normal. ( 4yrs at regional (crap job) then major (big bucks)) But as I see it with eyes wide open - There basically will be no "major" to step up to eventually (or already). Airline management knows what they are doing, taking advantage of the large # of pilots out there. Jet time doesnt mean anything anymore. Its all about - are you willing to work for low pay and high abuse as a career. Apparrently this is in ASA's own interview questions - check it out on www.willflyforfood.com. Its like asking you if you are retarded right to you face!
Nothing in this industry makes sense anymore...
I've decided a while ago that the dream is just that.
I don't know what the lure is anymore. Years ago things were obviously different. Now its just a joke. I was tempted to post a question to everyone...Why are there so many people that want to "fly for a living" when you know how crappy it is? Maybe they are blind and think that things will change for the better and go back to normal. ( 4yrs at regional (crap job) then major (big bucks)) But as I see it with eyes wide open - There basically will be no "major" to step up to eventually (or already). Airline management knows what they are doing, taking advantage of the large # of pilots out there. Jet time doesnt mean anything anymore. Its all about - are you willing to work for low pay and high abuse as a career. Apparrently this is in ASA's own interview questions - check it out on www.willflyforfood.com. Its like asking you if you are retarded right to you face!
Nothing in this industry makes sense anymore...
I've decided a while ago that the dream is just that.
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