FlyGuy1988

Hi all, this is my first posting to this site. I'm just trying to get a general idea and some opinions on where to go and what to do next. I won't bore you all with the extensive details of everything that happened, but I'll try to explain the situation as best as I can. It was not a great introduction to the 121 world...

My official start date with my airline was October 15th, 2018. Two days prior, on 10/13/2018, my spouse had a medical issue that resulted in hospitalization. Throughout my training process, we dealt with the medical issues without problems and interference to my training, until right before my Maneuver Validation, which was scheduled on 12/19/2018. At this point, my spouse was then hospitalized for a pulmonary embolism and possible brain aneurysm just before the MV.

Bad decision on my part, I thought I could compartmentalize the situation and push through, but I failed my MV. Made stupid mistakes. After doing a performance review board, I received two additional re-training sessions and completed them successfully, without issue, which then led to me completing my MV successfully. At this point during the review board, I informed my employer of my situation. It was pretty much ignored.

After this, I continue to the final phases of training. LOFT 1 and 2 and then the LOE. I complete LOFT 1 with no issues. I ask my captain questions about operational aspects of 121 flying. At the end of the lesson the instructor says everything went great, nothing to brief.

LOFT 2, started off a little rocky, I had a brain fart on some things but ultimately got it and we completed the flight. The instructor for LOFT 1 was my captain for LOFT 2. At the end of the lesson, my instructor didn't feel comfortable sending me to the LOE due to some of those brain farts... had a moment where I forgot how to sequence onto an airway and a moment where I didn't hear the holding instructions, so I kept asking what I was supposed to put into the FMS (this was interpreted as me not knowing how to program the FMS). My instructor also stated to me that my captain (who was my instructor for LOFT 1) stated to him that I needed a lot of prompting during LOFT 1... I never did need any help from anyone during that flight. It was also odd that he mentions this to my instructor but didn't say anything the day prior. I should also note that the instructor for LOFT 2, was my instructor during one of the MV re-training sessions. I had classmates crash the airplane and still get sent to their checkrides... I have a brain fart on sequencing onto an airway, I'm apparently not ready for my checkride... In his opinion.

So, I agree to an extra training session. The airline gave me two. These two training session were to then lead to the LOE. To sum up the two training sessions, I had instructors telling me to do stuff I hadn't been taught and would not see until IOE (as confirmed by the instructor AFTER the fact and by friends after telling them how everything played out), a captain who was literally just a warm body in the seat... I had to do everything, including the PM callouts, because he would forget them. My instructors would also tell me to do something just to see if I would "take the bait" as one instructor stated. BTW, there was no script for these sessions, so the instructors made up the lessons. I was criticized for following the Flight Standards Manual and I was criticized for stuff that my captain would mess up. By the end of session 2, the instructor didn't feel comfortable sending me to the LOE. Keep in mind, aside from the MV, I've never had ANY training issues and I felt very comfortable flying the airplane. The instructor recommends an FMS lab...

At this point, I have to go through another Training Review Board. I'm told to do an FMS lab, one-two hour sim, and then the LOE.

I do the FMS lab and it goes PERFECT! Had a great instructor finally, I required little to no assistance with programming the FMS. Major confidence boost after this session, I do the sim session next and it goes perfect. I'm flying with a captain, finally, who knows what he is doing and we can work TOGETHER as a team, which had not been happening the last few lessons. I was to take my LOE the next day, but due to a power outtage at the sim building, it was moved to the next day.

That change in schedule led to my captain being swapped for the instructor who was my instructor during my extra sim session after LOFT 2. I was nervous about flying with him, as he treated me horribly during that lesson.

The LOE went as follows, my examiner praised me for; stopping the captain for attempting TWO taxiway incursions, messing up a holding pattern, breaking sterile cockpit, telling me to go against the flight standards manual, asking me questions in the middle of an emergency to test my systems and limitations knowledge (which I got all correct), not making proper callouts as PM, nearly exceeding a/c tolerances, and messing up the parking flow... I however messed up the STAR. I didn't meet my crossing restriction. Now, the reason for this was because my captain/instructor told me to NOT put in a transition on the STAR due to the SID having many of the same waypoints. I thought this was a helpful tip, but it was actual a trap, I personally feel he did on purpose. Because of this, I didn't notice the FMS was programmed wrong and the examiner at the end explained the problem to me. It was at this point my captain spoke up telling me what I did wrong, even though he told me to do it...

I unfortunately failed the checkride because of that one thing and was then asked by my airline to resign. My union was basically pointless and couldn't help me with my situation, even though I tried bringing up the training situation several times during my review boards. During my meeting where they had me resign, I got the Chief Pilot to admit my training did not go the way it should... But I still had to resign.


NOW, this was two weeks ago. I've applied to two regionals at this point and both denied my application. I have a ATP checkride failure and left my previous airline after three months of employment. To be frankly honest, I feel screwed and it seems like I have no viable options except for Mesa or GoJet... Anyone have any suggestions for how to push forward? Sadly, talking to the union, they said I'm not the only one who this has happened to with my particular airline. Also if you're curious what the aircraft was, it was a Q400... I'll let you figure out the airline.

Again, if anyone has suggestions, I'm all ears for suggestions and knowing my options.

dera

Sounds like they didn't like you much at Horizon.
Mesa is a second chance airline, apply there.

"Now, the reason for this was because my captain/instructor told me to NOT put in a transition on the STAR due to the SID having many of the same waypoints."

I'm not sure what on earth is going on here? That to me sounds like a fundamental lack of understanding how SIDs and STARs and the FMS works. Maybe it was a legit fault after all?

captjns

First I hope your wife has fully recovered from her illness. I know Its too late to suggest a postponement in training until your situation was on the uptick... so I won’t. Airlines, like many corporations, have an Employee Assitance Program. In some cases, not all but, supervisors and yes, even, HR, can provide assistance too.

FlyGuy1988, you never imparted your experience prior to joining [Horizon]. Did you have prior experience in complex aircraft high performance aircraft equipped with FMS’s... such as Garmin, Honeywell, or Collins? Is this your first multi crew position? You mentioned a failed ATP... was that before joining [Horizon], or was the failed check ride to be an original ATP and Type Rating?

Some, brand new to the industry, may have an unrealistic expectation that their airline will “get them through the program” because of the dire need of crewmembers. Some provide additional training for various reasons.... such as a genuine desire to see the new hire succeed. A lot of time and money invested in their new asset. And of course to avoid litigation.

All the best to you and your wife for getting your career back on track.

JohnBurke

First, my sympathies for your wife, and best wishes.

Had you introduced the issue with your wife before the problems began, I suspect you'd have had a different outcome, at least insofar as some leniency on account of your hardship. That it was introduced only after problems occurred makes it seem to those listening more of an excuse. I realize it's not, but timing counts.

As for the remainder of your time, it's clear that multiple check airmen and the training review board(s) have a different perception of your progress than you do. It may be a good time to step back, address the personal challenges you're facing at home, and then retry when you are under less pressure. I think you'll have a very different outcome.

I think that with a simple explanation that you were under pressure because of family matters, tried to soldier through, but found it untenable, you'll be fine.

If you try to give a long explanation that comes across as an excuse (as you've just done), you're dead in the water.

Do you understand the difference?

DarkSideMoon

Could’ve been a flight to/from the same airport or one that shares a STAR/SID. Not sure the specifics of their FMS but I could see it getting confused if a SID fix and a STAR fix are the same. Sim instructors do weird stuff to get out early sometimes....

dera

I thought about that, but getting them mixed up would also be a huge lack of situational awareness. Especially during the arrival/approach brief where you would catch these things.

TiredSoul

This ^^^
Great post.

rickair7777

x3


Get your family situation in order (always the priority). Failing your FIRST 121/type training event is not a huge deal in the long run, it's a big transition for most folks if you're coming from piston props, so it can be forgiven by the majors down the road.

But you need to understand clearly what went wrong and fix it. Very likely that some or all of it was the distraction of your unfortunate family circumstances. Might just be that + inexperience. But you need to do some honest introspection and make sure you've identified any weaknesses.

Way ahead, two choices, either go get some 135 experience or start applying to bottom-feeder regionals. Odds are good that with your family circumstance stable and having been through the process once you'll be fine on the next one. If you do 135, that will probably open the doors at some of the other regionals.

But if someone asked what happened (they will), accept the blame: You tried to continue training with a major life distraction and wasn't able to focus. IMSAFE. The corrective action is that you now know better. Almost every airline I'm aware will let you delay training for a situation like that, if for no other reason than they know you'll likely fail and waste their money in the process (mesa for example doesn't care about your family, they're proven that time and again, but they do care about money).

TiredSoul

I’ve done some hiring and firing aviation related not 121.

Have you ever failed a checkride?
“Yes I have”
Please explain.
“I was dealing with a medical emergency of my spouse and distracted. I should have withdrawn.”

Now this ^^^ keeps the attention of an interviewer.
If you get into a long winded explanation they’ll zone out in about 3 seconds flat.

Very very few will hold this against you.
Get back on the horse.

60av8tor

But then that’s exactly what you did. Your post comes across as “not my fault” to be blunt. As others have said, some time and introspection will serve you well.