121 Checkride Failure. Options?
01-25-2019, 03:12 PM
#31
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Most everyone here is saying the same thing, so pay attention:
When asked about this event, you had some valid challenges going on in your life. You made some mistakes. You were overwhelmed by the emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual stress that you and your wife were under, as would any reasonable person. You gave it your best anyway, which is admirable, but it just wasn't happening.
When you interview next you can explain that you're aware of mistakes you made, that you're past that difficult time, and that you're prepared to move forward
Do not discuss the event in detail. Do not assign blame. You made mistakes, you learned from them. Be prepared to relate what you learned.
DO NOT assign fault in any way to any company, or check airman, or equipment. Those with a lot more experience than you, and a lot more industry insight than you, who have seen this material before, will see nothing but excuses if you try to explain it. They don't want to hear it.
I had some difficulty. I learned. This is what I learned. I am ready to proceed.
No details about the ride, no explanations. 11 pages? No. Not even a paragraph. Not even a sentence.
We've all had family emergencies. You faced a potentially life altering event, both for you and for your wife. You were forced to confront all the stages of grief, consider many possibilities, and probably lived for some time with your stomach tied in knots with worry. Nobody faults you for this, and nobody faults you for not being a perfect performer when you had such a burden in your life.
Don't beat yourself up. Don't beat anyone else up. Relate your family circumstance in as few words and as simply as you can. Own that you found it hard to focus on training with the pressure of a family emergency. You tried, but ultimately were unable to balance the two. You took the time to see the matter through. You're prepared once again to give all your attention to training. Done.
It's that simple. Keep it that way.
When asked about this event, you had some valid challenges going on in your life. You made some mistakes. You were overwhelmed by the emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual stress that you and your wife were under, as would any reasonable person. You gave it your best anyway, which is admirable, but it just wasn't happening.
When you interview next you can explain that you're aware of mistakes you made, that you're past that difficult time, and that you're prepared to move forward
Do not discuss the event in detail. Do not assign blame. You made mistakes, you learned from them. Be prepared to relate what you learned.
DO NOT assign fault in any way to any company, or check airman, or equipment. Those with a lot more experience than you, and a lot more industry insight than you, who have seen this material before, will see nothing but excuses if you try to explain it. They don't want to hear it.
I had some difficulty. I learned. This is what I learned. I am ready to proceed.
No details about the ride, no explanations. 11 pages? No. Not even a paragraph. Not even a sentence.
We've all had family emergencies. You faced a potentially life altering event, both for you and for your wife. You were forced to confront all the stages of grief, consider many possibilities, and probably lived for some time with your stomach tied in knots with worry. Nobody faults you for this, and nobody faults you for not being a perfect performer when you had such a burden in your life.
Don't beat yourself up. Don't beat anyone else up. Relate your family circumstance in as few words and as simply as you can. Own that you found it hard to focus on training with the pressure of a family emergency. You tried, but ultimately were unable to balance the two. You took the time to see the matter through. You're prepared once again to give all your attention to training. Done.
It's that simple. Keep it that way.
01-25-2019, 03:44 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: fatigued
Posts: 1,397
Originally Posted by FlyGuy1988
Hindsight is 20/20, I admit fault in not catching the mistake. I was gullible and thought the captain had my best interests. I briefed the SID/STAR twice and both times, he told me to do what I did. I remember thinking something was wrong when I did it, but I trusted the captain more than my own judgement. At the end of the day, it comes back to me, but that was my thought process with how that aspect played out. He also had me change approaches at the last minute too, which went against our FSM in what approaches we were to do. I was told at the end of the checkride, I chose correctly, him making we switch everything at the last minute, didn't help the situation...
The Q400 is arguably the most complex and challenging transport category aircraft ever (poorly) designed... There's a lot of sh!t that needs to be done FAST or you will get behind the airplane. If ATC is making your life difficult then you need to not let them push you around, and make yourself more time. Get delay vectors or tell them what you need.
01-26-2019, 09:51 AM
#33
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2018
Posts: 215
Let me put this another way. Even if the training department were run by a bunch of clowns and you got the complete shaft, in an interview setting it is always better to just admit fault and what you learned from it without making any excuses.
Some training departments are run horribly. The seat fillers may be failed checkride/upgrades themselves, and it sounds like you may have got stuck with a few. You can get sim instructors who just don't care, can't teach (i.e. never flight instructed), and are just in it for the extra pay and little work.
You could have had a combination or all of these factors work against you here. But even if it did, in your next interview just admit fault and don't make any excuses. The airlines eat that **** up. It saves them from any liability if students are forced to admit fault, and it also means they don't have to work as hard to improve their training departments.
Some training departments are run horribly. The seat fillers may be failed checkride/upgrades themselves, and it sounds like you may have got stuck with a few. You can get sim instructors who just don't care, can't teach (i.e. never flight instructed), and are just in it for the extra pay and little work.
You could have had a combination or all of these factors work against you here. But even if it did, in your next interview just admit fault and don't make any excuses. The airlines eat that **** up. It saves them from any liability if students are forced to admit fault, and it also means they don't have to work as hard to improve their training departments.
02-04-2019, 10:13 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 644
Originally Posted by ICUROOK
Let me put this another way. Even if the training department were run by a bunch of clowns and you got the complete shaft, in an interview setting it is always better to just admit fault and what you learned from it without making any excuses.
Some training departments are run horribly. The seat fillers may be failed checkride/upgrades themselves, and it sounds like you may have got stuck with a few. You can get sim instructors who just don't care, can't teach (i.e. never flight instructed), and are just in it for the extra pay and little work.
You could have had a combination or all of these factors work against you here. But even if it did, in your next interview just admit fault and don't make any excuses. The airlines eat that **** up. It saves them from any liability if students are forced to admit fault, and it also means they don't have to work as hard to improve their training departments.
Some training departments are run horribly. The seat fillers may be failed checkride/upgrades themselves, and it sounds like you may have got stuck with a few. You can get sim instructors who just don't care, can't teach (i.e. never flight instructed), and are just in it for the extra pay and little work.
You could have had a combination or all of these factors work against you here. But even if it did, in your next interview just admit fault and don't make any excuses. The airlines eat that **** up. It saves them from any liability if students are forced to admit fault, and it also means they don't have to work as hard to improve their training departments.
It also helps to get to know as many people in ground training as possible, especially captain-upgrades. Don't be shy about asking them how to do stuff, especially if your assigned captain isn't helping you out. As long as you're asking smart questions and working hard you shouldn't have any problems finding great mentors.
Now, going forward, think of it this way, what is the next airline that hires you looking for? They probably want a trainable, safe, low drama, cog in the wheel, and even if you did get screwed as bad as you say, it's really hard to not come across as a whiner who doesn't accept responsibility, and therefore, is un-trainable and high drama. They have to interview a bunch of people and they have precious little time to get to know you, so I wouldn't spend much of that time dwelling on a negative issue, especially when you have a perfectly understandable personal reason for not succeeding. Hope your wife continues to do better, by the way.
02-04-2019, 11:41 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Position: Not an RJ driver anymore
Posts: 1,033
FlyGuy, what I'm hearing from you SHOULD be nothing but a sympathetic situation. Having family issues during airline training is rough. My mom had some medical issues when I was upgrading at my previous regional, so being forced to push that aside and deal is a monumental task. I commend you for attempting to do your best to do so.
With that being said, I zoned out during your explanation pretty quick. I'm pretty confused. You seem to be willing to take the blame while also faulting those in the training department. I have found in my years of airline experience (especially regionals) that the training department is untouchable in terms of standards, professionalism, etc. You're up against a buzzsaw and it's simply up to you to get out of it. Unfortunately, you didn't.
Personally, I'm not sure you going to Horizon and explaining the situation would have done a lot of good. Some airlines would be sympathetic; others would tell you to suck it up and deal. Sounds to me like Horizon would have just said to deal with it. Right or wrong, the 121 world is cutthroat. Always has been and always will be.
In your situation now, if you think you have learned your lessons and can power through, I'd keep applying. Something will stick here soon.
With that being said, I zoned out during your explanation pretty quick. I'm pretty confused. You seem to be willing to take the blame while also faulting those in the training department. I have found in my years of airline experience (especially regionals) that the training department is untouchable in terms of standards, professionalism, etc. You're up against a buzzsaw and it's simply up to you to get out of it. Unfortunately, you didn't.
Personally, I'm not sure you going to Horizon and explaining the situation would have done a lot of good. Some airlines would be sympathetic; others would tell you to suck it up and deal. Sounds to me like Horizon would have just said to deal with it. Right or wrong, the 121 world is cutthroat. Always has been and always will be.
In your situation now, if you think you have learned your lessons and can power through, I'd keep applying. Something will stick here soon.
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