Regional lifers. Why are they stuck?
 

Just curious. I'm sure you all know several lifers at your regional. Of those lifers that cannot move up and are not a lifer by choice, what are the most common characteristics and flaws that most of them share? What are the main reasons you think they can't get on with a legacy or at least a good LCC/ULCC?

Are they socially inept, weird, a-holes, slobs, unprofessional, not likeable?
Training failures, incidents/accidents, DUI's, criminal record?

Is it their personality holding them back more than their flying record, and or, their personal history?

We can use this thread as a cautionary tale. Thanks.

Old pilots used to being the boss don’t want to give up being on top of the seniority list where they’re revered, have a better schedule QOL and in some cases a pension to take a pay cut to go to the bottom of another seniority list. That’s part of why that groups of folks don’t try to leave.

For lifers who try to leave but don’t, often times they’re 40+ year old RJ captains who’ve been in their seat 5+ years and only fly the line, don’t do anything extra to stand out amongst their peers in the industry. They think they’re too good to try to go to LCCs and turn down job offers from them in an effort to hold out for something better that doesn’t ever come.

Sometimes you’ve got pilots who have marks criminal or work history (2+ checkride failures, multiple jobs in the span of a year, withdrawal from training at a 121 airline, failed CQs, long gaps in employment etc.) who make them appear to be a greater risk of not successfully completing training, or not sticking around or being a liability to the company.

I originally read the title of that thread as "Regional lifers. Why do they suck?".

That conversation was going to go in a very different direction.

Some are just lazy and dont want to put in the time required to move on.

The ones who are "major material" that dont move on are almost all tied to their domicile for personal reasons. They dont want to commute to reserve and the "paltry" regional schedule that they know they'll have for the rest of their career let's them take care of stuff at home.

And then theres the bunch that are just poor pilots. Age and experience doesnt guarantee skill or aptitude. Thats the negative side of the seniority system. Some of the best captains/first officers I've flown with are relatively young/low experienced guys.

So you think it's more of a personal choice and not so much to do with their personality for many of them?

Obviously, you're going to have the ones with sketchy records or employment history, training failures.

So it's a mixture of both choice, and blemished records?

The bolded paragraph is just shocking. Don't they realize that they could make so much more money with just a few years of sacrifice if they moved to an LCC or major? Can they not do the math?

There are as many reasons as there are lifers.

Yeah, I was just trying to get a handle on the ones not stuck by choice, but because they can't get hired by a major or LCC.

Personality doesn’t get someone an invite to interview. I have seen personality end application processes with TBNT though.

It’s case dependent on the individual but there are categories that many fall into.

Oh I know this. I flew with an old CA that was doing 270 KIAS below 10k, and I pointed it out and he told me, "Don't tell me how to fly my airplane." :mad:

This was a POS CA that was busted by the IRS for setting up a fake church with him as the preacher to try to avoid paying income taxes. Total a-hole.

Lots of factors but among them is the ridiculous first year wages at some of the ULCCs. There was a long discussion on this subject on a Frontier thread back when their negotiations were going on. The pilot group didn't wish to "waste" any "negotiating capital" on bringing newbie's on board. So what did the first year FO wages end up?

$58 an hour for Frontier
$57 for Spirit
$78 for JetBlue

So if you are currently making $90-100 an hour as a regional captain, WITH YOUR CHOICE OF SCHEDULES, how hard is it to take a 45% pay cut for a year and go back on reserve in some crash pad for a couple years, because your roots are too firmly planted after a decade or so to relocate? Pretty hard. Not impossible, certainly, but it's a serious emotional barrier, and the more senior (i.e., older) you are, the smaller the carrot for doing it and the greater the carrot for just staying put.

So in a way it's the major airlines' pilot union negotiating tactics that are hurting these guys, or at least making the decision to move on more complicated than it would otherwise be.

Complacency is common, and people make decisions on things besides numbers. I’ve got peers at my airline who in the last 12 months have turned down interview invites from Frontier and Spirit as well as job offers from JetBlue and Fedex.

I hope you called scheduling on the ground and were removed. No way would I fly with someone like that. Intentional disregard for regs? Screw that.

To those people, I’d say “It’s called a savings account. You see, what you do is, you save money to prepare for that first year.”

Seriously, it’s a KNOWN quantity. Always has been. You’re going to take a pay cut. By year two at practicially every major you’ll be in the black. Year three well ahead of where you’d ever be at your regional. Further, by year two-three you can pretty much expect 15-17 days off. Oh, and the paint matches the paycheck.

I get if you live in IND and are at Republic, and don’t want to commute to JFK. But there are options, and many people aren’t willing to explore them. Which is great, because I am.

If we’re going to make this argument we should probably throw in that first year at FedEx is $78, UPS is $46, and Hawaiian starts at $36.

Like it’s awlays a choice.
If you’re over 40, more than 10,000 hours forget Delta, Military FW excepted of course.
AAL outside the flow or military FW, good luck.
UAL, make it through the Hogan first. I know some really great guys who have failed it twice and some losers who passed.
SWA, some have had luck, others not.
So it comes to ULCCs or cargo. Brown and Purple aren’t shoe ins.
Now I’m not saying don’t apply, but myself and others had our apps in for years and no bites. Heck, I had mine professionally reviewed a few times. The last guy was straight up- you’re too qualified. Look at some of the cargo carriers.
Fortunately K4 threw a lifeline to a bunch of us.

You guys who take it for granted that anyone can do 5 years at a regional and move on kill me.

I understand, but a 2nd year FO at Frontier, Spirit and JetBlue make as much or more than a 10 yr CA at the regionals. After that, it's not even close.

So is the consensus here that most lifers that are qualified and could probably move on, don't do it by choice?

Not to mention, by that point in life, generally people have a family, and there's more to consider than just yourself. Kids change the game a lot.

The bolded text baffles me.

How can you be too qualified as a pilot? What is their reasoning behind this? It makes no sense. :confused:

Airlines don't like to hire people they feel can't be molded to fly the way they want. It has to do with more than just total time.

It’s unsubstantiated urban legend... The same that expats will never be hired by any US legacy. It’s all BS. They either make it through the hoops, or they dont’t.

Absolutely. I'm not saying it is an insurmountable burden. Of course you can plan and budget for it, but the question was asked and for many people this does impede them. And it really is sort of hard to justify, at least in my opinion, that the guy is somehow less valuable in the right seat for Hawaiian (to use your example) than a newbie starting out for Republic with 1500 hours.

Do you disagree?

Not very hard if you can do math. Now add in the retirement disparity and the regional guy looks like an even bigger fool. Then add an economic downturn or another 9/11 and the LCC guys look like geniuses.

That was the last flight I flew with him thankfully. I would have refused to fly with him again if I would have been scheduled to.

My reply to him was, "I'm doing my job and pointing it out to you so we don't get a violation. If you don't like it, I've got the FE right here and the CVR to back me up on it." He glanced back at the FE looking at him and slowed to 250 KIAS. :D

Like I said, I think he did time in the slammer for tax evasion. Real POS.

Set in your ways. Untrainable.

I can see the reasoning, but I don't believe that to be true.

Experienced doesn't mean "untrainable". Yes, they may be set in their ways some, but it doesn't mean they cannot be trained to do things differently or slightly different.

But if you have 5000 apps from guys that are "set in their ways" and 5000 apps from guys who aren't, which pile would you pull from?

I think a lot of the posters on this thread miss the mark completely...

The airlines weren’t doing too great in the year or two leading up to September 11th, 2001. That event in many ways set in motion a downward spiral for the legacies. Then age 65 happened. And then the financial crisis / housing crisis of 2007/2008. Essentially what the industry was left with was a, “lost decade”.

Pilots were essentially “stuck” where they were at. So this begs the question... Do you put your entire life on hold to wait until you make more money? Or do you go ahead and marry your wife and have kids? Buy that house you and your family wants? No career is worth putting your life on hold.

So the natural byproduct is that many pilots who often suffered from nothing other than bad timing went on about their lives. And it wasn’t until a few years ago really that entry-level wages at the legacies improved. So for most pilots with mortgages, kids in college, etc it simply was not feasible to make the jump. And now that perhaps it is feasible they have less than 10 years left and don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze for the twilight of their career.

There are those who have other issues, but I have ran across far more who fit the mold above than those who have personality conflict and training/qualification issues.

The experienced ones who show they are willing to progress.
I don't want to fill my airline with regional FOs.

Yup. Exactly right.
Lost decade was real, and it completely sucked. Many 26 year olds today think we're making this garbage up....

And for many, it’s shaping up to be the lost/dark 1.5-2 decades by the times they can finally get interviewed, etc.

From regional new hire initial to major airline ground school has taken me 15.5 years. I've had MANY FO's of mine way less qualified hired by legacies with half the time. And I've done everything possible to avoid being that stagnant, lazy guy.

Took 5.5 years to upgrade at a regional. That wasn't too bad. Now I fly with 24 year olds complaining how it's BS they haven't been pulled for CA yet. Unreal.

Similar/same, just shy of 17 years.

Toss in a furlough and a couple CA displacements as well.

Now get these damn kids off my lawn!!!!

Hardly an urban legend. You can’t jump through the hoops if you can’t even get a chance to try.
I’m the poster child. Numerous ratings. 135 CP. Military IP and combat time (but RW). I even went out on my own dime and got additional ones- glider and SES- just to prove I was trainable. I saw numerous FOs hired with zero TPIC. Good guys and girls all, but I couldn’t even get the interview. Even the resume comapanies said the same- too much experience. That’s why I finall went with K4 when they threw me a line.

I'd pull from the guys with the most relevant experience, but that's just me.

I don't buy into the "untrainable" theory, but maybe I'm wrong.

Many reasons.

Some have blemishes which probably cannot be overcome, or at least not for a top-tier job.

The "lost generation" often has established family and lives in a location which is not conducive to commuting.

A 10+ year regional CA is looking at a long pay cut to go to an LCC/ULCC.

Many are divorced with kids, and cannot move, or rock the boat with the custody sharing schedule.

Some don't want to be FO's again (stupid IMO... as a major FO I usually fly with great, experienced CA's. If not I can gently exercise my leadership skills to achieve the desired outcome).

It's a legit decision to stay, as long as you understand the stability risks of the regionals and have a plan B. If your plan B is starting over at age 50 as an FO at another regionals, then you should just go to an LCC now. Regionals may be in for "Rough Air" over the next decade.

I have also seen folks who are not putting in the effort... keep in mind that's a daunting prospect for a family man (or worse, Mom). Major job hunting is a full time job. If you do grab the ring, your reward is a paycut, many months of training, and then likely some time commuting to reserve at a junior base. The system is designed to "discourage" older family men, who I suspect are not considered the ideal candidate by the majors.

Very good points here that aren't usually considered.

Actually, trend is for the COMPANY to argue for higher new-hire pay, with the union trying to link that to higher across-the-board pay. The majors know that new-hire pay can be a selection criteria for pilots changing jobs.

That's where I'm at, but I had my medical issue to deal with and then the lack of hiring after I got it back.

How do you control yourself from slapping them? lol