Uncompetitive doesn’t mean unhireable. We had a fellow that used to put together some pretty nifty graphs of the hiring at the majors. The total time bell curve showed a sweet spot of around 6700 hours for most new hires with a shallow decline up to around 10,000 hours then a pretty sharp decline. The same graph for the LCCs had a sweet spot of around 3800 hours TT.

Just stay on the ball, keep your apps updated weekly and hit the job fair circuit. As soon as you start to stagnate, your odds of escape start to decrease.

The Minneapolis thing is taken out of context. What I meant by it is I didn’t want to commute farther than Minneapolis but wouldn’t rule out the west coast. But whatever. Either way I was not trying to be condescending nor was I trying to give life advice. Everyone has their reasoning behind their logic. What I am saying was that this is, from my experience and what I do, what is looked for and makes people stand out. I guess I didn’t necessarily come off as well as I intended too. What I was trying to state was that it is a well rounded employee that they’re looking for not just quantity of total time/PIC. And by the same token if you do a ton of volunteering but also lack in areas such as total time/PIC or have a low college GPA then you are equally not as marketable.

I don’t argue with people who stay at a regional for their career. The regionals aren’t a terrible career in today’s world. 10 years ago I wouldn’t ever imagine wanting to spend my life at any of these places but I understand that people didn’t have a choice. The point I was trying to get at was a good amount of posts were aimed at people who are young and don’t understand what those “before us” went through and don’t deserve to be in the positions they are. Like I said I work for a regional. I know people younger than me with less time and experience picked up by a major airline. I don’t look down on them but rather I say “what can I do that they did to help me get hired too.”

You’re right maybe I am young and don’t understand anything about the world. But I also know that going through life miserable about where you are and everything else that is going on around you is no way at all to live.

(And for the guy concerned about paragraphs there ya go. Didn’t realize it was all that important as I’m posting from my phone...)

Correlation is not necessarily causation. After 5-7K many of the most motivated are gone so the folks left, on average, are not trying as hard, or at all. After 10K, they are not trying at all or have some background showstopper.

At UAL, there are only 165 pilots under 33 years old. Our average new hire is just under 40. The wave is just arriving. Don’t give up.

P.S. With the huge variety in fleet/ missions, you can make $ and have great QOL with not too much global seniority. Just will depend on your BES (base, equipment, seat).

THIS^^^^

As you repeatedly filter the cohort for hirability the ones left behind are disproportionately the ones that were ALWAYS least likely to be hired due to a VARIETY of factors including geographical preferences, no four year degree, discomfort with actively campaigning to get to the next level, prior training failures, prior DUIs or other legal problems, divorce/child custody issues, unwillingness or inability to take the monetary or seniority/scheduling hit to restart at year one, being super cautious and knowing that a 12 year regional captain is a lot more furlough-proof than a first or second year major FO, or maybe just because of a profound hatred of being on reserve.

Age and flying hours become highly correlated with people hanging around a regional for any or all of these reasons - and probably others I haven’t thought of - but in no real way are those two factors (age and flying hours) the CAUSE of those people being stuck there.

So they were hiring flight instructors instead of experienced captains. That's a bold, and stupid strategy.

I didn’t take that away from what he was saying at all. I think he was trying to be helpful and give solid insight into what he’s seen at his level. I think it’s pretty nasty to discard someone’s comment based on their age. I’m in my late 30s and know very mature, intelligent people who are in their early 20s, as well as total losers who are older than me.
I also believe what he was saying is valid. In my former career, I’ve hired hundreds of people, many of whom were equally qualified for the job. A positive attitude, and ability to work in a team environment are super important. You can’t “teach” a good attitude. Volunteer work is great, as well as hobbies, additional certifications, etc. As a hiring manager, you want people who will enhance your organization. Often I looked at people for their growth potential. If I were in charge of hiring FOs, I would look for qualities that would make a good captain. They say “dress for the job you want, not the job you have”. You have to sell yourself as someone who will be an asset to the company, not just a cog in the machine (even if that’s all you end up being).

I honestly don’t see what the big deal is, if someone is happy to stay at a regional then that is okay. Just 7 years ago it was taking the better part of a decade for people to even upgrade at a regional. They let life happen in the meantime, and not everyone wants to take a financial hit even for a year or two to go to a major. Chances are those folks now have kids in high school, saving for college or maybe a mortgage that doesn’t allow a pay cut from 120k down to 50-80k.

We have to remember that in almost every other industry, a top out pay of 130-140k is pretty damn good money, we as airline pilots .0002% of the population seem to lose sight of that. I agree if one can financially absorb the initial blow of moving on, it will mean they will have a much better financial long term career. But for some the rat race is over, the lost decade made some comfortable and that is okay. I fly with many guys that have a degree, have volunteering and other accolades and no DUI’s. They just don’t want to commute to SFO for reserve in their late 40’s early 50’s missing Timmy’s baseball games. There is more to life than money, those that already have a good financial life, drive to work and see their families 15-18 days a month see that as well.

Very true. Nice post.

Pretty much. But as you say, almost every other industry involves an immediate PAY RAISE when moving on to bigger and better.

Not till recently is there even a hint of “parity”, or a minimal pay loss when moving on.

Remeber that brief little hiring stint in 2007-2008?

FedEx, DAL, and SW has the highest new hire pay, around 40-45/hr

NW, USair, and CAL, and UAL were still sucking hind titty below $40/hr.

Granted, those hired are sitting pretty now. Except for the USAir, L-CAL, and 2 time L-UAL furloughs that had to endure that sting in the recession.

They were also hiring people with specific DNA strings. As a result, United as a fairly large contingent of permanent F/Os these days.

I remember those days well. I'd imagine my former coworker may be one of those permanent FO's.

It was quite disheartening for others with specific chromosomes and fair skin.

Nothing wrong with being a permanent FO at a major. They’re still gonna make three times what a regional lifer makes and have close to ten times the amount in their 401k by the time they age out.

I'll say I should have tried a lot harder at moving on. It'll probably be one of my life's biggest regrets that I didn't. I've got three degrees, two of them in aviation, 3.6 gpa, never failed a check ride, etc.. Haven't applied anywhere in a decade... but I've used my overnight bag for only one night in the last four months, been home every single day, usually get the days off I want, and should do over $140 -150K this year. I'm already at $37k ytd for the first three months.

The wife works and it should push our income near $200k. We get by OK. I live in a state with a cheap cost of living and my family doesn't want to leave. My hobbies involve the outdoors and that's 10 minutes from my house. I can't do them living in California or the east coast without a lot more hassle and swore off commuting years ago. I'm old and hopefully looking at an early retirement in 10 years barring a big market crash.

And I'm not even all that senior in my domicile.

Nothing wrong with the way you're doing it.

Sounds like a very nice life. Congrats.

A common theme I’ve noticed among many lifers is the old “Poor me. No one will hire me because all these women and dark skinned people are taking my job.” attitude. If you’re not getting the call, the problem is you. Nothing else.

This was a long time ago bud when we were all relatively young lower time pilots.

When you have 3000 hrs and >1000 TSIC and can't get a response from the majors, yet your coworkers with a certain DNA make-up and less time are being hired by the majors, it can be discouraging and disheartening.

I guess think preferential hiring practices and lowered standards for some is fair?

Oh I still hear plenty of “they’re taking all our jobs!!” related *****ing in crew rooms across our system. Life isn’t fair. Never has been, never will be. ****ing and moaning about it will never get one very far. It’s purely wasted energy that should be put to better use to better ones odds.

True, MD/AWD make up the bulk of hiring, STILL.

But the thing NO ONE wants to mention is, as ratio of applicants to those interviewed/hired, what’s the ratio ��

Except not really, at least at a legacy/big6 anyway.

There’s STILL a lot of very qualified people, additional/collateral things on tne resume, clean records, professional app reviewed and being told “looks great, should get an invite any time” only to get NOTHING.

I know more and a few of them.

It's certainly annoying, and it's also hypocritical BS.

But the reality is that there are very few diversity candidates out there so they are not taking ALL of the jobs. If I had to guess, maybe 5% of the non-diverse applicants lost out to diversity, ie would have been called or hired but lost out to someone with less qualifications based on diversity.

Most who aren't getting hired, are not quite competitive yet (or not making the effort).

I don't believe people think the issue is that they are taking all the jobs, that was a very poor mischaracterization of the common complaint by said poster. The issue is that they are held to a much lower standard to a comparable white male to get the job. As much as you may want to bury your head into the sand and deny deny deny, we all know it is the truth.

Was a long time ago, but I wanted to go to Ozark because all my friends were there and it was a moving carnival. Home most nights.

I'm not denying anything, I said it was a BS :confused:

But it's also not the reason that *most* are not getting called/hired.

Just a little addition, for clarity.

It’s definately personal choice for almost all of them. If you’re a 50+ something, living in Base doing day trips home with your family almost every night making $120-$150 a year with 15+ off at home, do you really want to start over at the bottom of a seniority list, on probation, living in a crashpad again, working the worst schedules again, and not breaking even money wise for at least three years. Then a few years later when schedules get better you upgrade back into crashpads and reserve.

The lost decade trapped a lot of guys at the regionals. There are regionals with direct flow through agreements where they do not even apply for the major job, they log into the website and check a box to flow. Yet there are a few hundred - for example - at Envoy who choose not to flow. For them it’s a QOL issue mostly.

I’m sure there are countless other reasons. Assuming they are there because they can’t leave is a big mistake. Most just don’t want to.

This a post of mine from another thread, but it applies here also.

Well, there's nothing I can do about my age. Barring that, it would be nice to have a clearer understanding of why and what you are lacking in their profiles.

Hypothetical here. You're a 5500 TT, 2000 TPIC regional pilot, 40ish, have some volunteer time on your resume, clean record with no criminal or driving problems, and can't get an interview. They won't tell you why you are being excluded from their hiring pool and you're left to the guesses of the paid application services as to why you're not viable. Basically, there's no feedback from the majors to let you know what you need to do to be considered. It would be very nice if they took the time in your "TBNT" email to tell you, "Unfortunately, you don't have X to be competitive at this point".

Basically, tell me what I'm lacking, don't just say TBNT. Tell me what I need to do to become competitive, please.

Hell, SkyWest did that for me. The recruiter called me up after a couple of email exchanges and told me, "Hey, my recruiters who are pilots told me to tell you to possibly get a couple months of part 135 time to get current again and we'd be happy to give you an interview afterwards." I appreciate that. They told me what they needed me to do to get an interview.

Now Republic and Endeavor, it was a simple email that basically said "TBNT".

This here is the truth.

Just like when I was an FE and the new female FO was bragging about her upcoming interview with old United, while flying with a great CA who was a former B-52 commander who couldn't get an interview with them. Tell me, who was more qualified and deserved the job?

He told me when she was doing a preflight, "If she rubs that damn United interview in my face again, please stop me from choking her." Lol

Great post and great points.

Thanks for educating me on this. Cheers.

Anyone who thinks it would take 3 years to break even financially, even at an LCC, can't do math. Now add in the retirement and it ain't even close.

I think you are slowly realizing, that your experience is stale and pretty much worthless by now. That's why you're struggling to even get hired by a regional. Don't expect 1000 fresh hours suddenly will make you a prime candidate for majors.

You have now been nominated for tool of the day.

He's been told "no" by 3 regionals now. He's thinking he will get a call from a major when he hits his 1000 hours TPIC.
If verbalizing that makes me a tool of the day, so be it.

This is an extremely bitter subject where emotions run high. Nothing is a guarantee in life, even tomorrow. There are those that won the lottery, and those that haven't. Luck has more to do it than you realize. Maybe you were lucky and won the Ovarian lottery, and was born a beautiful person? Maybe you didn't wind up with a guy who is nicknamed "Pink slip Pinkston" while getting your CFI's, maybe you made a move when no one else was for a diamond in the rough? You can only put your best foot forward and hope for some luck.

To be fair, Republic and Edv are telling everybody no. Word is Republic is filled through mid-2020 from their backlog, LIFT, and Cadet programs.

Well, to be honest, I had no idea how any of this would pan out.

When I made the decision a month ago to give flying another go after encouragement from a few friends in aviation who told me I would get hired , I was skeptical. I started reading up on the "pilot shortage" and figured, "What the hell, I'll put out some apps and see if I get any responses". Well, to my surprise, I got alot of responses. I went from not knowing if I could get hired as an FO, to getting many responses for an FO candidate, then 3 different regionals calling me about being a DEC, to realizing I probably couldn't cut it as a DEC, then to just getting on as an FO and upgrading when I feel competent.

It's been a wild, confusing month. To all of you who've offered advice and constructive criticism, I thank you.

I interviewed with Mesa today and I interview with XJT on Monday. I just hope I have to make a decision between the two, and make the right choice.

Plus, I don't think my previous experience is worthless. I still legally have the flight time. It can't be taken away, I flew it.

And I never said 1000 hrs of TPIC was my ticket to the majors. I've said that's what's missing on my resume. For every person that says I'm too old and out of the game for too long, there's another saying the opposite. All I can do is try my best and let's the chips fall where they may.

So it wasn't just me? Thanks, I was feeling like the ugliest girl at the dance party.

Hey man, I've been following your journey so I can only imagine it's been a rollercoaster.
But please, PLEASE, don't enter this new career by thinking you need your 1000 hours, and you'll automatically get hired by a legacy.
That's what you've been suggesting lately, and I think everybody here is saying that's not how it goes.

Get your currency, get a year or so of recent experience, and start applying. But remember - you have a huge disadvantage when applying, because you're so low in experience compared to others in your sociodemographic group. To reach any sort of quality of life. I would look into corporate gigs, while obviously applying at all the big dogs.

Dude, where are you getting this from?

I got "TBNT" emails from Republic and Endeavor like everyone else apparently.

I interviewed with G7 for a Near-DEC position and when they told me I would be required to upgrade in 3 months, I told them I couldn't promise them that. Should I have lied to them?

As far as the majors, I've said numerous times here that my most realistic chance is getting on with a LCC/ULCC after a couple years at a regional.

You've been very fair to me and given me some solid advice on here, and I appreciate it, but you've misunderstood my expectations. For me to make it to a major at my age after the long layoff would be a minor miracle. But I'm going to try anyway.

Hell, at this point in my life and the way my flying career and oil & gas career (laid off twice) has gone, being a lifer at a regional is an upgrade.

Cheers dera, no offense taken.

Agreed. There might be a few odd cases where someone is a sim instructor, and making $200k at a regional. Even then, UPS or FedEx will have you close to that or more by 2nd year pay. But if you’re just a line captain, saying you can’t take the paycut is absurd.

Have you thought about one of the AA wholly owned regionals? At least if for some reason you didn’t get a call from a legacy you’ll either flow (maybe if you have enough time on your side) or retire at least with AA travel bennies.

Just another thing to think about.