I'm not a "lifer", but where's it written that regional pilots MUST go to mainline? At the end of the day, it's just a damn job. If pilots want to stay where they're at, then that's their business. Who cares? What other career or job out there always expects people to move on? None really, but for some reason, high and mighty "fellow" aviatiors always make time to criticize career decisions of others.

I fundamentally disagree, on several levels. But let me make some things clear before we get into the meat of my argument:

1. I don't blame the young ladies, the overwhelming majority of whom are qualified and if not certainly WILL be qualified by the time they've worked the right seat for a few years. They did not establish this policy and they are not going to be able to protect themselves from the downsides of this policy, so they might as well take advantage of it. The majority of guys going to WAI , OBAG, and WAI are looking for advantage too, not necessarily supporting those organizations. Nobody should be throwing stones at the young ladies.

2. I don't blame the majors. A significant subset of their clientele consider the appearance of diversity to be important. The "right people" in the cockpit to them is as much a marketing ploy as the right uniforms and the right paint scheme on the metal. And generally no more and no less.

The problems I see with this are twofold.

1. To further their own careers (and fill those diversity slots) supervisors will put people from those targeted groups in positions they really are NOT ready for. This increases their chance of failure in those positions, occasionally with catastrophic results for the person involved and for the people who were depending on that job to be done correctly. But also a potential career hit even for the person the affirmative action was ostensibly supposed to help. Don't say this doesn't happen because I've seen it - careers of promising junior people ruined by pushing them into jobs they weren't quite ready for by supervisors motivated to increase their own promotion chances by showing their diversity support bonafides.

2. You don't promote equal opportunity by NOT promoting EQUAL opportunity. It is inherently DIVISIVE to target groups for special outcomes, even if that special outcome is just their pro rata share. They will forever in the minds of those who didn't get the job be looked at as tokens and people who couldn't get the job on a level playing field, and even among their peers, many will harbor the idea that the person really shouldn't be there. And this, unfortunately, will keep the prejudice going even after the person has shown they are entirely competent to do the job.

I'm not saying it's the end of the world or that we won't survive it as a nation, we've done worse (Japanese-Americans in WWII) and the world didn't end. But this, like that, is bad policy, IMHO.

Wow can you offer anything without being so facetious?

And no, it's a proven fact.

The entire regional model is predicated on the constant churning of cheap labor. I’ve got a decade and a half at my company and cost a heck of a lot more than a 2 or 3 year pilot. Never forget what side of the balance sheet you’re on. Hint. It’s the liabilities column, NOT the asset column.

Last I checked, every job has the employee as the liability column not asset.

Oh do tell!

You seriously don’t get it.

A 10 year captain at my airline costs 50 percent more than a 1 year captain.

The freaking cost index we fly is driven primarily by the captains salary. It’s the single biggest expense. Don’t say fuel is - the carrier pays for that.

That’s pretty funny that you think any regional airline is that organized!

You mad bro?

Reflects on you, not me bro ;)

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. When I was looking to make the career switch to aviation, I was really worried about potential misogyny and asked a male pilot friend of mine about it. He said the age of misogynistic pilots are retired (or retiring), but that wasn’t to say I still wouldn’t run into it occasionally. I have been pleasantly surprised by my fellow male pilots who have treated me as nothing but an equal. Only during one regional airline interview did I run into a male pilot who actually started talking to me about female pilots getting pregnant and taking time off of work, and being too pregnant to fly. The scene would never make it into a movie because of how unbelievable it was. It was bananas and needless to say I got out of there fast!

Anyway, I think rather than offer affirmative action in hiring, it would be more beneficial for airlines to contribute to outreach programs for minorities and females. I can’t vouch for minorities, but a a female, the higher paying STEM fields really aren’t encouraged at young age. Guidance counselors encourage us to become nurses, teachers, flight attendants, when they should be encouraging us to be doctors, professors, and pilots. I don’t think it’s a conscious effort, but looking back, definitely an observation. Hopefully it’s different with the new generation. Anyway, thanks for being supportive! I hope you’ll encourage your daughters, sisters, and female friends to become pilots. There’s no reason we should be such a small minority of pilots, other than most of us aren’t exposed to aviation as a possible career path.

I absolutely agree. But if you read my post PROPERLY, you will see I was pointing out that some people make up total BS stories to justify their decision not to move on. Lots of denial out there.

Some of the more unusual lifer stories I've flown with:


Stubbornly refused to get a degree because they felt "it's not relevant to airmanship/flying skills".

Had not updated their logbook since being hired at regional. Now has about 8 years of flights to find and enter into logbook. Hasn't really started but hey, going on a cruise next month!

Felt that the any hiring process that involved HR was "drinking kool-aid", which they refused to do. Would only consider airlines that only had a technical/sim session interview, no HR. Finally left...for a second tier ACMI carrier.

Holding out for only one specific airline. That airline hasn't called. They may never call. But hey, uncle flies for them, so they gotta call!

That is just a poor risk assessment. On par with parking your investment cash in a money market account because "the recession is right around the corner". Every one has a risk tolerance but staying at a regional because you might get furloughed is about the same as building a castle in the woods for a zombie apocalypse. There will always be regionals hiring with fast upgrade times that will be able to replace your current income and the reward for leaving is quantifiable. Even the worst of the worst times in the industry presented an experienced pilot with employment pretty quickly. If someone gave me that excuse I would understand that their decision making is flawed or they were delusional.

Ever thought that maybe for some they’re just happy where they are and quite content? Not everyone feels they need to be at a legacy to have “made it”.

There will always be the ones that can’t get a job anywhere else for various reasons and there’s some in the above category.

To each their own, why worry about someone else? They’re doing you s favor by not taking a slot leaving more opportunity to those below them.

I’m doing everything I can to move on to something better than a regional (even with a flow in 2-2.5 year away), but i don’t see why we need to lump everyone into the same basket.

Two thumbs up.
Why do so many pilots feel they need to criticize what drummer someone else steps to? Who knows.
It is his or her music, even if too far away for us to hear.
(my apologies to Thoreau for the blatant plagiarism)

Maybe, maybe not.

If you're 25, absolutely play the long term odds. Even with a furlough, that big-six seniority number is worth vastly more than a regional career, in all respects.

But if you're 50, with a mortgage, family, and college expenses on the horizon a badly-timed move could be a life-altering catastrophe. There's also the small but real risk of new-hire training failure... if you haven't done a new type in years, it's going to be harder.

Right now, of all times, furlough risk is relatively low due to retirements (but only at the majors with multiple fleet types which have a lot of retirements looming).

My understanding of the *intent* of this thread was to help potential noobs to understand career progression opportunities and risks, ie why some people are "stuck", be it by choice, circumstance, or their own damn fault. Not to criticize those who simply choose to stay (although there are risks there too).

I get the feeling that those that keep insisting guys are making poor decisions by staying at a regional haven't worked in this industry long enough to understand what seniority can mean to someone that's been at an airline for 15+ years.

I never ask the lifers I fly with why they chose to stay because I know that there must be some that the subject might be a bit sore. That said, it does come up from time to time.

The first lifer I flew with (on IOE) told me he was a cancer survivor and had just gotten back from extended leave fighting his cancer. Before the cancer, he had planned on flowing to AA but his spot came and went while he was away. Said he could select to go now but instead wanted to focus more on spending time with his family and taking care of his health which meant not commuting to wherever the new job put him and working a junior schedule.

One guy had invented a gadget, had patented it and was making more money selling it that he was flying.

One other lifer I flew with went off on an unsolicited rant about how ridiculous it would be for him to give up years of seniority and take a pay cut to go work for AA. He actually came off as quite a bit bitter and I wouldn't be surprised if, at least with him, there was more to the story. But he's the only one.

That was three. The rest:

All the rest have appeared so content with their decision that they really don't seem to really think about it. They do seem to enjoy their 5 or 6 weeks of vacation, or whatever it is they get because they like to talk about what they've been up to and they have WAY more time off than I do. They don't have enough years in them to ever see that at AA. I really think it's just a QOL thing. They also really like to talk about what I'm doing and what my career plans are and what it's like for recent hires today... no bitterness, just interested and happy things are different today than when they were coming up the pike.

All these guys had flow as an option so it's not a hustle/no degree/dui/gender/race/overqual/etc issue. They were also good pilots (even the one bitter one). They just have different priorities than making the max buck.

So if you're focused on the idea that everything anyone does is about the money and they just don't know how to do math or they have no idea how to get another job, I think you're wrong.

Nice post. What I’ve learned from this post and a couple similar posts like this are that there are several reasons, and often by choice to be a lifer. I guess I thought every single regional pilot wants to fly for a major, but that’s not the case. I guess the moral of this story is, don’t judge anyone for being a lifer, they all have their own story, reasons, and justifications.

Thanks.

The only reason ANYBODY feels the need to criticize a lifer is because of the seniority system. Literally no other reason except that.

That just goes to show you not everyone cares about making money for big houses, fast cars, boats and ex wives. I don’t see an issue with anyone deciding to stay at a regional if it works for them. As stated earlier, a wage of 130k is good money in most parts of the country if one is smart with their money.

Here's an important point to remember:

There are no lifers at AA WO's who are there because they have no choice.

There are plenty of lifers at every other regional, who are stuck even if they want out.

What’s MD/AWD?

Average white dude.

Also: Mad Dog/All Wheel Drive. The final nail in McDonnell Douglas's coffin.

Thanks! How was it the final nail in McDonnell Douglas' coffin?

There's plenty MD/DC-9s out there in Part 121 Supplemental cargo. The old girl ain't dead yet...

It would be strange to criticize regional "lifers", every pilot that stays for a career at a regional is one more open slot for one of us that hopes to get there. (Legacies)

That’s exactly what I mentioned above.

It’s also the same envoy people that get mad at other envoy pilots getting in to AA outside the flow. They forget that’s a good thing for them.

Unless you happen to work at a regional that is SO clogged with lifers that it took the better part of a decade just to upgrade. I don’t think it’s a problem anymore, but it most certainly was at one time.

No personality; dull in general. The type who can’t (or won’t) verbalize what they’re thinking when an ambiguous situation, or a change in plan presents itself.

The type who are so experienced yet fail to turn on all exterior lights when crossing runways because they’re too lazy to reach up, or who have just utterly failed to realize it’s a ‘thing’ now.

Those types, IMO. I award them 90 IQ points, maximum. As always, exceptions exist.

I was pondering something today. What is the current definition of a “lifer”? When I was a starry eyed noob, the generally accepted threshold was ten years or more at a regional placed one in the lifer category.

Save it for the straight in ABQ visuals!

I’ve done a straight in ABQ visual, from the back seat of an aircraft I was only rated to fly in the back seat of and not even then as a pilot.

Get your front seater hung over bad enough on a cross country and he’ll let you do damn near anything even if you only have an FAA PPL and WSO wings...:D.

Just pull up the HUD in your center MFD and go for it.

In that case, this is for you my friend!

https://i.imgflip.com/2xmk1t.jpg

Someone who has been in the same aircraft type/seat for more than five years...

That would make me a lifer in three companies....

I think it's more of a mindset than a timeline. Plenty of 10-15+ year guys going to the legacies now that they are hiring.

I've even been surprised when a few old "I'd only leave for DAL or FDX" guys (who I though were just saying that as an excuse) have recently left for DAL or FDX.

But did he let you land? Don't have to answer that if you're still in.

Hell yeah. Someone had to, and he was in no shape to do it. Those Jeremiah Weed hangovers will do that to you. Of course unlike the Navy, we actually had a stick back there which helps considerably.

Over the course of that phase of my life I lulled a number of front seaters into a false sense of security....:D

Oh, and the seat selector was ALWAYS in aft initiate.