Future of United Express
#31
So what's your opinion on ALPA airlines voting in concessionary contracts to take airplanes from other carriers for growth? That kind of pattern bargaining is like, totally ok, but only because they are fellow union bros?
I'm actually a hardcore pro-union guy, but it's sad seeing all of the new guys in this industry get brainwashed by ALPA. ALPA has accomplished very little when it comes to improving pilot compensation and career stability in the past four decades. They have a laundry list of pay scale losses, pension program losses, and scope erosions that outweigh any "hard fought gains" they may have had on their resume at one time. Merger policy for seniority integration is also fairly weak.
Until ALPA mainline and regional pilots stand side by side and demand 1 contract and 1 seniority list for all pilots, few will treat them like the "super union" that they self-proclaim to be.
I'm actually a hardcore pro-union guy, but it's sad seeing all of the new guys in this industry get brainwashed by ALPA. ALPA has accomplished very little when it comes to improving pilot compensation and career stability in the past four decades. They have a laundry list of pay scale losses, pension program losses, and scope erosions that outweigh any "hard fought gains" they may have had on their resume at one time. Merger policy for seniority integration is also fairly weak.
Until ALPA mainline and regional pilots stand side by side and demand 1 contract and 1 seniority list for all pilots, few will treat them like the "super union" that they self-proclaim to be.
Regarding SkyWest, they are a scourge to unionized labor. You don’t really even have a contract per se. Can’t your company change your compensation without it even going to the pilots for a vote?
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,090
I often see the popular opinion that PSA’s contract was concessionary. It gave us SAP. The absolute best quality of life tool in the entire industry, bar none. And it gave us our critical pay language which at the time (pre-company reserve grid manipulation and pre-arbitration) allowed line-holding pilots to regularly credit 125-145 hours /month. Effectively making our airline some of the highest paid regional pilots anywhere at that time. But hey, let’s not have details that matter get in the way.
Regarding SkyWest, they are a scourge to unionized labor. You don’t really even have a contract per se. Can’t your company change your compensation without it even going to the pilots for a vote?
#34
So what's your opinion on ALPA airlines voting in concessionary contracts to take airplanes from other carriers for growth? That kind of pattern bargaining is like, totally ok, but only because they are fellow union bros?
I'm actually a hardcore pro-union guy, but it's sad seeing all of the new guys in this industry get brainwashed by ALPA. ALPA has accomplished very little when it comes to improving pilot compensation and career stability in the past four decades. They have a laundry list of pay scale losses, pension program losses, and scope erosions that outweigh any "hard fought gains" they may have had on their resume at one time. Merger policy for seniority integration is also fairly weak.
I'm actually a hardcore pro-union guy, but it's sad seeing all of the new guys in this industry get brainwashed by ALPA. ALPA has accomplished very little when it comes to improving pilot compensation and career stability in the past four decades. They have a laundry list of pay scale losses, pension program losses, and scope erosions that outweigh any "hard fought gains" they may have had on their resume at one time. Merger policy for seniority integration is also fairly weak.
But it's a very steep uphill battle... mainline pilots who came from regionals sympathize, but after slogging our way up the ladder we're not in any mood to make concessions so other people don't have to pay dues. I don't mind if you somehow skip your dues, as long as I'm not the one paying for it (I already paid). Make no mistake, any move to bring regional flying -in-house would require heavy concessions on the part of major pilots.
Major pilots who didn't come from regionals have no sympathy at all.
#35
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Dec 2019
Posts: 407
I heard United didn't like them bc of performance metrics...hard to say who they do or don't like. Although I'm most inclined to think it will come down to who can fly for the cheapest.
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,090
It will have to happen at mainline, regionals (by design) have no leverage.
But it's a very steep uphill battle... mainline pilots who came from regionals sympathize, but after slogging our way up the ladder we're not in any mood to make concessions so other people don't have to pay dues. I don't mind if you somehow skip your dues, as long as I'm not the one paying for it (I already paid). Make no mistake, any move to bring regional flying -in-house would require heavy concessions on the part of major pilots.
As for people not paying dues, for the most part every kid getting hired at XYZ regional has paid some dues to get there, even if their legacy-captain parent paid for their ratings, they've still busted their butt and put in the work. Do their dues outweigh yours or mine? probably not, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make this career better for pilots.
Major pilots who didn't come from regionals have no sympathy at all.
But as you said, few mainline pilots have a desire to fix the issue if it will cost them a single cent to extend the ladder to help out the guys below them or to stand in solidarity with them. And because unions without solidarity are weak, that tells you all you need to know about ALPA. The only people with the power to change the way it works, have already "gotten theirs," so they won't lift a finger.
Ultimately I'm wasting my keystrokes here, as this industry will continue to eat its young until there are no young left before it considers a change.
Last edited by threeighteen; 07-01-2020 at 03:33 PM.
#37
No coincidence, correct, however SWA seems to have 4 decades of consistent, measurable contract improvements in the same time period, which is also no coincidence. SWA has guppy captains earning what legacy wide-body captains do without having to wait 25-30 years to get to it.
Their model took off, and they capitalized after every down-turn so they could never plausibly ask their pilots for concessions (for a long time their corporate culture would have made that unpalatable anyway).
But I remember when SWA was not the preferred career-destination, that came about after 9/11 when the big boys went BK or suffered heavy concessions. Last man standing.
SWA is the poster-child for why de-regulation was a success.
#39
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