Advice for new hires
07-01-2020, 05:30 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,278
Advice for new hires
This is directed at the people who started their careers since 2012. For many of you, you only know the good times. The idea of being stuck in the right seat at a regional making less than $50,000 for 10 years is unimaginable to you. That was my reality.
Now I'm at Delta and facing a potential furlough. For some of my peers, this is the first setback in their career and they are woefully unprepared. They are panicking and are worried about how they will support their family. I started my 121 career in 2009, and up until 2016 it pretty much sucked. The silver lining is that it prepared me for a furlough. I'm in a fortunate position to actually looking at a potential furlough as more of a sabbatical. I plan to do some epic bike and camping trips. The only reason I was prepared was because I was mentored by captains who experienced the 9/11 downturn.
Here is what I did to get to a "furlough tolerant" position:
1. Don't plan on making anything more than min guarantee at an FO wage. I don't care if your current upgrade at your airline is 18 months, plan on making FO pay only. Even after you upgrade, only budget for FO pay. They can always downgrade you and the last thing you want is a mortgage you can't afford on FO pay. I made the mistake of buying a new car based on making 100 hours a month. 3 months later, the airline made every line 76 hours. Luckily, I was able to sell the car and only lost $1,800. Fast forward to Delta, and I'm able to upgrade in less than a year. I went from $80,000 a year to $240,000! Again, I was tempted to that my rule and increase my budget. Luckily, I didn't because 6 months later, Delta decided they had too many MD-88 captains. If I had bought the house we were looking at, I'd be screwed.
2. Don't have your spouse quit their job. Major airline pay is a life changer. When you factor in childcare, it can be very tempting for your spouse to quit since child care may count for 50% or more of their earnings anyway. Don't do it! If you are in a situation where you may experience a pay cut (downgrade or furlough) the means the economy is in a downturn anyway. If your spouse has been out of the workforce for a year or more, it will be nearly impossible for them to get a similar job again. A spouse making $50,000 a year when you are at a major may seem pointless, but if you are furloughed, that job will be a lifesaver.
3. Have 6-12 months of savings. If you find yourself half way up a major airline seniority list you probably don't need it all, so feel free to buy that boat, but until that point, don't do it. Everyone who found out I upgraded in less than a year asked what I did with the money. When I tell them nothing, they looked at my like I was crazy. My wife and I only have 1 car. We thought about getting a second when I upgraded, but we found out it was cheaper to use Uber to get to the airport. Factor in the time saved by not going to the employee lot, and Uber is way better than a second car. For the few occasions we do need 2 cars, we just rent.
This advice might seem extreme. My wife disagreed a lot about my finical philosophy since all of our friends were buying houses and we weren't. Lots of my coworkers also thought I was crazy for only having one car and no toys. But now I'm facing a furlough, yet I plan on building a new bike to go camping with, we have my wife's gym membership paid for for the next 24 months, and we will be able to take 2 vacations during the furlough.
Now I'm at Delta and facing a potential furlough. For some of my peers, this is the first setback in their career and they are woefully unprepared. They are panicking and are worried about how they will support their family. I started my 121 career in 2009, and up until 2016 it pretty much sucked. The silver lining is that it prepared me for a furlough. I'm in a fortunate position to actually looking at a potential furlough as more of a sabbatical. I plan to do some epic bike and camping trips. The only reason I was prepared was because I was mentored by captains who experienced the 9/11 downturn.
Here is what I did to get to a "furlough tolerant" position:
1. Don't plan on making anything more than min guarantee at an FO wage. I don't care if your current upgrade at your airline is 18 months, plan on making FO pay only. Even after you upgrade, only budget for FO pay. They can always downgrade you and the last thing you want is a mortgage you can't afford on FO pay. I made the mistake of buying a new car based on making 100 hours a month. 3 months later, the airline made every line 76 hours. Luckily, I was able to sell the car and only lost $1,800. Fast forward to Delta, and I'm able to upgrade in less than a year. I went from $80,000 a year to $240,000! Again, I was tempted to that my rule and increase my budget. Luckily, I didn't because 6 months later, Delta decided they had too many MD-88 captains. If I had bought the house we were looking at, I'd be screwed.
2. Don't have your spouse quit their job. Major airline pay is a life changer. When you factor in childcare, it can be very tempting for your spouse to quit since child care may count for 50% or more of their earnings anyway. Don't do it! If you are in a situation where you may experience a pay cut (downgrade or furlough) the means the economy is in a downturn anyway. If your spouse has been out of the workforce for a year or more, it will be nearly impossible for them to get a similar job again. A spouse making $50,000 a year when you are at a major may seem pointless, but if you are furloughed, that job will be a lifesaver.
3. Have 6-12 months of savings. If you find yourself half way up a major airline seniority list you probably don't need it all, so feel free to buy that boat, but until that point, don't do it. Everyone who found out I upgraded in less than a year asked what I did with the money. When I tell them nothing, they looked at my like I was crazy. My wife and I only have 1 car. We thought about getting a second when I upgraded, but we found out it was cheaper to use Uber to get to the airport. Factor in the time saved by not going to the employee lot, and Uber is way better than a second car. For the few occasions we do need 2 cars, we just rent.
This advice might seem extreme. My wife disagreed a lot about my finical philosophy since all of our friends were buying houses and we weren't. Lots of my coworkers also thought I was crazy for only having one car and no toys. But now I'm facing a furlough, yet I plan on building a new bike to go camping with, we have my wife's gym membership paid for for the next 24 months, and we will be able to take 2 vacations during the furlough.
07-01-2020, 06:49 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,090
Rock solid advice man. Until you're 50% up the list at your forever job, you're not "safe" and even at that point, you still better be living on FO wages or be able to scale back down to an FO-lifestyle very very quickly.
To those of you on the furlough list at your dream jobs, I honestly envy you. Sabbaticals are something I feel like this career is in desperate need of, but it seems like the only way to get one is to have the economy tank.
To those of you on the furlough list at your dream jobs, I honestly envy you. Sabbaticals are something I feel like this career is in desperate need of, but it seems like the only way to get one is to have the economy tank.
07-01-2020, 07:03 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
Excellent advice.
I grew up in the same Era as you, and have also lived well within my means despite my major airline paycheck. My wife and I have no debt, and lots of liquid assets (including savings). It takes a huge amount of stress off during times like this. Worst case, I will just be able to retire early by maintaining this lifestyle.
I grew up in the same Era as you, and have also lived well within my means despite my major airline paycheck. My wife and I have no debt, and lots of liquid assets (including savings). It takes a huge amount of stress off during times like this. Worst case, I will just be able to retire early by maintaining this lifestyle.
07-01-2020, 07:03 PM
#4
I Pass the Butter
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 555
As one of those "new guys," this is excellent advice. In the years leading up to my airline job, I spent years talking to guys at major, regional, corporate, fractional, and international jobs. I also spent years trawling these and similar forums. There's a lot to sift through, from bitterness to rumors to complaints about contracts and any other topic you can imagine, but buried in those pages is excellent wisdom such as this post. Between networking and sifting through forum info that more or less corroborated what I was hearing first and second hand, I had a very good idea of what I was getting into before starting flight training as well as in the months and weeks leading up to the start of airline training. My expectations and hopes were set, and I feel that I've had an excellent run so far and really haven't been too disappointed because of that. No expectations of bonuses, premium pay, quick upgrades, major retirements, etc. Sure, they were out there. But plan for and assume it won't happen to you. I just want to add my support to all 3 of these points.
1. When I passed training and was out on the line, I was very fortunate to have only a few weeks of reserve. Even that month, I managed to credit in the high 80s. And for the next 5 months in that base I was being awarded lines in the mid 80s and crediting anywhere from 85 to 95 hours per month. Between that and the per diem, I was blowing way past my expectations for pay, even with commuting and paying for parking and a cheap hotel sometimes in base. Then I got my home base and it's been great. My seniority plummeted. But I've mostly been able to hold a minimum credit line and pick up some stuff on my days off. With the exception of 1 month, I was seeing 78-83 hours on average, and not quite as much per diem. But that's fine because I lived in base, parking was paid for, no commuting and hotels, etc. So I still came out the same or ahead. One of these months, I actually credited over 100 hours and like $600 in per diem, which was outstanding. But I still plan for and try to live as if I'm getting my min guarantee. It's come in handy, due to all the coronavirus panic, because our min guarantees have been cut and there's never anything to pick up on days off. So with the reduced minimum credit for a line plus the per diem, I'm pretty much making what a normal minimum line would pay.
I always planned on (Monthly guarantee) x (hourly rate) and didn't do any funny math to estimate taxes and per diem. In retrospect When I do the math, busy months (~85 hours) plus the per diem I typically made (~$500), minus taxes/401K/insurance deductions, is pretty much exactly equal to just the min guarantee multiplied by the hourly rate (no tax, per diem, etc factored). Your actual take home pay will vary depending on your tax rate and which deductions you elect, but at least in my own experience just the Min Guarantee x Hourly is pretty close to what I actually took home during the good months anyway. I know others say you can multiply the hourly rate by 1000 or 900 if you're conservative, but that's still gross pay not net.
2. I no longer have one of these, but excellent if you do. Even though it didn't work out, she loves her career and had no plans to quit even if we started having kids. That $40-50K was enough to pay the bills while I was finishing college and had a little bit of income, and it was even enough that we could get by during the 6 months that I was unemployed working on CFI and CFII. It was tight a few months but we had benefits through her employer and we managed to make do. If you can fall back on a significant other, sibling/roomate, at least to help split some basic bills is also helpful, especially if you're renting a crashpad (i.e. you're paying two rents).
3. Absolutely, save anything you can. I've always been one to live within my means, and the only real debt I have are student loans. I was paying well over the minimum payment on loans and cards until March when I scaled it back to the min, and during this period of federal loan deferment I've been setting aside the regular monthly amount into savings as a "dire straits" cushion and will pay that toward the federal loan if I'm not on the street in a couple months. I drive an 18 year old car that has been reliable. My ex took the TV and a bunch of other stuff, so I just stream on my iPad instead of buying a new TV or games or other toys. I don't really go out, have a small wardrobe, rarely eat out. I prep meals and pack food for trips. Call me a curmudgeon, I don't really care. I was originally saving up an emergency fund plus a "what if my Nissan dies" fund, plus trying to save for a house some day. Now, I'm just preparing for the worst and hoping it doesn't come. But I figured with the amount I have saved now and my current burn rate, I could pay full rent, groceries, utilities, rent, credit cards, student loans, and be good for a year. Probably 18 months if I was super austere and sacrificed my credit to skimp on loan and credit card bills. Worst case scenario, I move in with my parents and drive 3 hours to base.
As it stands, overall I feel...comfortable, I guess. If I round down I'm a solid 77% on the seniority list at my regional so I'm by no means safe. But at least financially, I feel comfortable knowing that I can get by in a furlough, unpaid leave, or concessions (I pray it doesn't come to that though). And hey, maybe I can get my road bike out as well. It's probably worth a lot more than my car at this point but has been mostly neglected with how busy flying has been. Anyway. I'm overall grateful we've managed to keep working as long as we have, in a time when many have lost jobs and lost family members. Hopefully cuts are less than expected and everyone can come back soon.
1. When I passed training and was out on the line, I was very fortunate to have only a few weeks of reserve. Even that month, I managed to credit in the high 80s. And for the next 5 months in that base I was being awarded lines in the mid 80s and crediting anywhere from 85 to 95 hours per month. Between that and the per diem, I was blowing way past my expectations for pay, even with commuting and paying for parking and a cheap hotel sometimes in base. Then I got my home base and it's been great. My seniority plummeted. But I've mostly been able to hold a minimum credit line and pick up some stuff on my days off. With the exception of 1 month, I was seeing 78-83 hours on average, and not quite as much per diem. But that's fine because I lived in base, parking was paid for, no commuting and hotels, etc. So I still came out the same or ahead. One of these months, I actually credited over 100 hours and like $600 in per diem, which was outstanding. But I still plan for and try to live as if I'm getting my min guarantee. It's come in handy, due to all the coronavirus panic, because our min guarantees have been cut and there's never anything to pick up on days off. So with the reduced minimum credit for a line plus the per diem, I'm pretty much making what a normal minimum line would pay.
I always planned on (Monthly guarantee) x (hourly rate) and didn't do any funny math to estimate taxes and per diem. In retrospect When I do the math, busy months (~85 hours) plus the per diem I typically made (~$500), minus taxes/401K/insurance deductions, is pretty much exactly equal to just the min guarantee multiplied by the hourly rate (no tax, per diem, etc factored). Your actual take home pay will vary depending on your tax rate and which deductions you elect, but at least in my own experience just the Min Guarantee x Hourly is pretty close to what I actually took home during the good months anyway. I know others say you can multiply the hourly rate by 1000 or 900 if you're conservative, but that's still gross pay not net.
2. I no longer have one of these, but excellent if you do. Even though it didn't work out, she loves her career and had no plans to quit even if we started having kids. That $40-50K was enough to pay the bills while I was finishing college and had a little bit of income, and it was even enough that we could get by during the 6 months that I was unemployed working on CFI and CFII. It was tight a few months but we had benefits through her employer and we managed to make do. If you can fall back on a significant other, sibling/roomate, at least to help split some basic bills is also helpful, especially if you're renting a crashpad (i.e. you're paying two rents).
3. Absolutely, save anything you can. I've always been one to live within my means, and the only real debt I have are student loans. I was paying well over the minimum payment on loans and cards until March when I scaled it back to the min, and during this period of federal loan deferment I've been setting aside the regular monthly amount into savings as a "dire straits" cushion and will pay that toward the federal loan if I'm not on the street in a couple months. I drive an 18 year old car that has been reliable. My ex took the TV and a bunch of other stuff, so I just stream on my iPad instead of buying a new TV or games or other toys. I don't really go out, have a small wardrobe, rarely eat out. I prep meals and pack food for trips. Call me a curmudgeon, I don't really care. I was originally saving up an emergency fund plus a "what if my Nissan dies" fund, plus trying to save for a house some day. Now, I'm just preparing for the worst and hoping it doesn't come. But I figured with the amount I have saved now and my current burn rate, I could pay full rent, groceries, utilities, rent, credit cards, student loans, and be good for a year. Probably 18 months if I was super austere and sacrificed my credit to skimp on loan and credit card bills. Worst case scenario, I move in with my parents and drive 3 hours to base.
As it stands, overall I feel...comfortable, I guess. If I round down I'm a solid 77% on the seniority list at my regional so I'm by no means safe. But at least financially, I feel comfortable knowing that I can get by in a furlough, unpaid leave, or concessions (I pray it doesn't come to that though). And hey, maybe I can get my road bike out as well. It's probably worth a lot more than my car at this point but has been mostly neglected with how busy flying has been. Anyway. I'm overall grateful we've managed to keep working as long as we have, in a time when many have lost jobs and lost family members. Hopefully cuts are less than expected and everyone can come back soon.
07-01-2020, 07:07 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 126
Great advice. This is my first downturn and I feel a lot less stressed thanks to the advice of all my mentors that had been through the bad times before and prepared me for it. One piece of advice I received that has helped me tremendously is to take advantage of good times. When there's a lot of work out there, take it. Every once in a while decide that this month you're going to fly your ass off and milk all the open time and premium pay you can get. Then any amount over your guarantee paycheck goes into savings. Of course your family situation will dictate how often you can do this, but it's amazing how quickly you can build a nice little cushion just by doing it every once in a while.
07-01-2020, 07:34 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2019
Posts: 486
1. Always pack a bag of beef jerky or something stinky to eat. It’s a great way to get back at that micromanager sitting next to you.
2. Take note of where the free hotel breakfast meals are and keep your uniform handy in base. When on reserve and at the crash pad, it never hurts to grab a free meal in on your way into work.
3. Grab all the free toilet paper, shampoo, towels, and bar soap you can. They go for premium in bulk on eBay.
That’s about it. Please refrain from saying “blocked” on the radio. That’s for envoy guys only.
2. Take note of where the free hotel breakfast meals are and keep your uniform handy in base. When on reserve and at the crash pad, it never hurts to grab a free meal in on your way into work.
3. Grab all the free toilet paper, shampoo, towels, and bar soap you can. They go for premium in bulk on eBay.
That’s about it. Please refrain from saying “blocked” on the radio. That’s for envoy guys only.
07-02-2020, 12:37 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 399
Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine
My wife disagreed a lot about my finical philosophy since all of our friends were buying houses and we weren't..
07-02-2020, 01:19 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 692
Originally Posted by 123494
Picking a different career would also be wise choice. A career with upward mobility and the ability to make lateral moves if necessary. That is great advice you wrote though.
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