Excargodog

Yep. You can CALL it a potayto or a potahto but a spud is a spud. Give seniority to one group and you take it from another. And NOBODY is going to be in a position to say they are going to be willing to pi$$ off all the applicants from the military AND Republic and Skywest AND the 135 world to bribe their regional pilots to keep flying cheaper equipment at a reduced rate. Not when other carriers are going to be dangling actual major jobs in front of those most qualified. Why accept substandard wages flying multiple short legs when you can fly a 737 or 320 for more money without taking at least a two year seat lock at a B-rate? And then probably have to upgrade back to the smaller aircraft at a reduced CA rate once you do get to a 737/320 position? Anyone really think that’s going to be an easy sell?

And how many if THESE guys are you going to lose when THEY get a CJO from someone else that will give them a seniority number in a major where they WILL be flying a 320 or 737 for full price - immediately.

About the only pilots you could sell the fly a mini at mainline to are ones who don’t believe they would actually be competitive to get hired at a major any other way. And HR isn’t going to want to lose all the OTHER applicants for those guys. Easier to contract the whole regional mess out to Republic and Skywest and let them handle it.

JohnnyBekkestad

As someone else said, i wouldn't be surprised if the regional model comes down to just a few regionals remaining, that are not directly connected to ANY major. SkyWest, Republic, Mesa and perhaps Horizon.

PilotBases

I’d rather fly an E175 than an MD88, and neither Delta nor American had issues hiring when newhires were getting the Mad Dawg weekly. Paid less than a 737, way more workload, more legs, yet Delta hired in record numbers while the 88 was going strong. American and JetBlue have/had the 190, no issues hiring there.

ZeroTT

a two year seat-lock in an RJ for someone with no significant heavy airplane experience isn’t unreasonable

ALPA was founded to promote safety among other things and putting 1000 hr r-atps with 25 hrs apache time right seat in a 73 isn’t promoting safety

Excargodog

Geez, guy, that was then and this is now. They got away with it because nobody else was hiring either. HAD other people been offering better deals in a PILOT CONSTRAINED environment, where do YOU think the pilots would have gone?

PilotBases

Delta was hiring into the MD88 until covid hit so it was barely a different environment, classes full. I don’t think “oh my god I could fly an RJ” will affect hiring numbers tangibly, guys are still getting A220 and 717 at Delta, and they’re hiring 50/week. I see very few saying “well I’ll go to Spirit instead, because flying an E175 for a year then possibly the 767 just isn’t palatable”. JetBlue hiring weekly into the 190. Hell, you put the hypothetical RJs at legacies somewhere like MSP, DTW (Delta) DEN, IAH (United) and I guarantee you’ll have guys bid it to avoid NYC, SFO, whatever coast junior base there is. It’s a non issue, as evidenced by the fact there are still guys going into the 717 at Delta every week, flying “RJ stuff”. I know heaps of guys still trying to get a call at legacy, and flying the 175 wouldn’t dissuade them in the slightest.

Excargodog

Certainly not. Republic and Skywest pretty much do that. Without the necessity of giving anybody a major seniority number to get it done.

Seriously? ALPA is a union. It was founded to look after its members contractual interests among which - yes, safety is one. But that’s not the issue here. ALPA doesn’t do the hiring or firing at airlines. ALPA doesn’t structure the fleets of airlines. It’s major duty is to enforce seniority. And your proposal would either require the airline to become non competitive for OTS hires or violate seniority, neither of which the ALPA major chapter would care for. You have only to look at the comments on the Delta and AA threads about flow. They DON’T WANT even their own senior regional people to be guaranteed a job. Even the ones who got there by flow themselves are concerned about increased flow causing them to take the leavings after other airlines hire the more competitive OTS.

I realize there are people who would like to get on at some regional and at that point just totally be assured of EVENTUALLY getting on at mainline. They don’t want to get the four year degree, don’t want to have to work to be competitive in other ways, just fly their regional jet, maybe not even upgrade, and just use their youth and the seniority system to eventually slide into the top spot (or even top FO spot) at a major eventually, without ever having to work to distinguish themselves. And I can’t honestly say that any of that competitiveness stuff is all that valuable to flying. Like my high school French and college calculus, I don’t see those things getting a lot of use in day to day flying the line.

But those competitiveness issues ARE important to the HR people and to some extent they are important to the ALPA guys/girls at the major level too, most of them being quite happy that newbies are compelled to take the same path they took to get where they are.

Excargodog

Uh, yes, before COVID hit and there were massive early retirements in the senior ranks and retirements of whole types of aircraft from each fleet WAS a different environment. Ask anybody in your airline HR or Finance departments.

ninerdriver

No less than putting someone with similar stats into the right seat of a CRJ...

OpieTaylor

I think the 50 seaters going away will stabilize everything.

Unfortunately it could drive down demand for pilots and lower the entry wages. Even during a shortage if there are only a few points of entry then they will collude on wages and not compete.

50 at Endeavor
150 at Skywest
50 at Envoy
50 at Wisconsin
60 at Piedmont
60 at CommutAir

Looks like 50 seaters will cost over 5,000 jobs, that will go away and be absorbed though a softer Covid demand reset.