Do younger pilots have an intrinsic sense of entitlement?
10-09-2007 | 10:43 AM
#91
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From: XJT furloughed due to non-ALPA undercutting
2) Years of flight training, checkrides
3) Working second and third jobs, night shifts to help pay for training
4) Usually a bachelors degree.
5) Everything else. If you're a pilot, you know what it took.
Is that enough for you? I hope you aren't arguing that regional FOs make too much money.
10-09-2007 | 10:48 AM
#92
Big Poppa
Joined: Apr 2006
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I skimmed to get in my 2 cents.
Since I'm a "young" pilot can say that I personally don't have a sense of entitlement. I think a lot of "young" pilots are angry at "old" pilots for pulling the rope up behind them and then screwing us to a life of 10 years at a regional before hoping for a mainline job. You can blame bankruptcy, you can blame management, you can blame a lot of things. I personally blame the fact that we're all flying around in 50 and 70 seat aircraft across the entire damn country because scope got relaxed to hell. Then, to top it all off, we're all looked at like pond scum for flying these jets...because apparently there's a lot more ways to get 121 turbine experience then flying for a regional.
Since I'm a "young" pilot can say that I personally don't have a sense of entitlement. I think a lot of "young" pilots are angry at "old" pilots for pulling the rope up behind them and then screwing us to a life of 10 years at a regional before hoping for a mainline job. You can blame bankruptcy, you can blame management, you can blame a lot of things. I personally blame the fact that we're all flying around in 50 and 70 seat aircraft across the entire damn country because scope got relaxed to hell. Then, to top it all off, we're all looked at like pond scum for flying these jets...because apparently there's a lot more ways to get 121 turbine experience then flying for a regional.
Perhaps among the pilots themselves, but not among non-pilots. you still get the "cools!!" and "wows"!!! when you tell people that you fly for Colgan, or ASA, or any airline for that matter. Pilots can be pretty hateful and condescending of each other. Maybe the reason for that is because there really ARE more young kids that are less mature in the cockpits. Anyway, my point is that I don't think regional pilots are considered scum, there are pilots everywhere that are stupid.
10-09-2007 | 11:47 AM
#93
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From: 170 babysitter
1) Tens of thousands in flight training debt
2) Years of flight training, checkrides
3) Working second and third jobs, night shifts to help pay for training
4) Usually a bachelors degree.
5) Everything else. If you're a pilot, you know what it took.
Is that enough for you? I hope you aren't arguing that regional FOs make too much money.
2) Years of flight training, checkrides
3) Working second and third jobs, night shifts to help pay for training
4) Usually a bachelors degree.
5) Everything else. If you're a pilot, you know what it took.
Is that enough for you? I hope you aren't arguing that regional FOs make too much money.
10-09-2007 | 11:55 AM
#94
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Joined: Apr 2007
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"Paying your dues," I believe, is just too relative a term to be thrown around like it is on this board...requirements, experiences, etc...all change from generation to generation.
Years ago in the hey-day of Airline flying, you had to survive a long military career (and at times, getting shot at) to fly for the likes of Pan Am, United, American, Eastern...Those old-timers would say they paid their dues, while the current mainline generation Pilot just "waltzed" into a career after 7 years of commuter/regional flying.
It's all relative, folks.
Years ago in the hey-day of Airline flying, you had to survive a long military career (and at times, getting shot at) to fly for the likes of Pan Am, United, American, Eastern...Those old-timers would say they paid their dues, while the current mainline generation Pilot just "waltzed" into a career after 7 years of commuter/regional flying.
It's all relative, folks.
10-09-2007 | 12:04 PM
#95
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Joeshmoe,
Just because it happened to you doesnt make it right. That type of mentality is the reason why hazing is prevalent in our country in our high schools and college campuses. It does take an open mind to realize that there can be a better way. It is easier just to take a resignation type attitude and accept things the way they are. Where would our society be had John Hancock, Martin Luther King and the Wright brothers felt that way. I for one think that it's a travesty that after everything you went through, after you passed all your checkrides, you were not even given enough to feed your children. Somewhere in our society a false sense of nobility has been given to those who just barely scrape out a living. While I have all the respect in the world for those people (myself included in those people) I have just as much disdain for the powers that be which allow it to continue.
Just because it happened to you doesnt make it right. That type of mentality is the reason why hazing is prevalent in our country in our high schools and college campuses. It does take an open mind to realize that there can be a better way. It is easier just to take a resignation type attitude and accept things the way they are. Where would our society be had John Hancock, Martin Luther King and the Wright brothers felt that way. I for one think that it's a travesty that after everything you went through, after you passed all your checkrides, you were not even given enough to feed your children. Somewhere in our society a false sense of nobility has been given to those who just barely scrape out a living. While I have all the respect in the world for those people (myself included in those people) I have just as much disdain for the powers that be which allow it to continue.
10-09-2007 | 12:12 PM
#96
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Joined: Dec 2005
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From: 170 babysitter
I do as well but I really wasn't implying that hazing is what I am for. I didn't agree with that in college and I don't now. What I am saying is working hard to get to the top seems to be a bygone mentality. Oh and John Hancock, MLK and the Wright Bros CERTAINLY worked hard for many years at their passions before they were thrust into the spotlight and earned acclaim. The respect they have was EARNED, not just handed to them.
10-09-2007 | 01:19 PM
#97
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Joined: Jul 2007
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From: 744 CA
- Nobody MADE anyone get into this business
- Should the pay be better ....in most cases YES
- Should the work rules be better ....in many cases YES
Is everyone entitled to a great paying job at the Legacy of their choosing? HELL NO, Fact is many pilots today who are currently flying for "Jet, National, Regional" carriers will NEVER make it to a Legacy or preferred cargo carrier. Thats just the plain facts. All the more reason for better pay and work rules at these smaller feeder type carriers. What every person is "entitled" to is to compete with other candidates for the jobs that are available. If the pay or lifestyle is not of your liking, nobody is holding your hand to the fire to get into this crazy business. My personal opinion is that if you are getting into this business simply because of the money I think you will be disappointed even in the long term if you get to a mainline pax or cargo operation. If you got or are getting into this business because you love to fly AND you can put up with all the BS, AND you are willing to have perhaps a good wage ( after a few years of languishing and paying one's dues so to speak ) then you might have a future in this industry. IF you get on with one of the GREAT paying carriers ( not everyone will ) then cudo's to that person for reaching the top. Many comparisons have been made in this thread to jobs in other sectors and how well they do or do not pay. Remember something, those folks are paid and get raises and get promotions based on excelling in their field ( yes there are exceptions, there always are ) but generally in the outside world you earn more because you have proven yourself valuable and are promoted you do what you do very well, not adequate or just enough to get by but truly do it well. We in our industry however get programed pay raises based on equipment and length of service, and get promoted ( CA upgrade ) based almost exclusively on seniority. Theoretically you could be the crappiest pilot for the company ( and still pass your checkrides ) and if you stay with it long enough you may one day be the #1 guy at said company with the best schedule and the best possible pay all because you have been their the longest....not because you are the best at what you do. My point is comparing what we make to the outside world is like apples and oranges. We have created a system and we must live within it. Personally I like the seniority system for many reasons albeit that it does have a drawback or two. What we as pilots need to get a grip on is that the avg seat capacity of mainline acft has been rising for 20 years... the avg seat capacity of feeder carrier acft has been rising for the same period of time. The business has changed, it is NOT the business of the 60's the 70's the 80's or even the 90's.....it is what it is NOW. We MUST work as cohesive groups at ALL levels of flying to ensure livable wages and work rules, but we also must not miss the forest for the trees. The flying public is SO VERY price aware that HUGE wage gains are probably not viable at any level. Modest ones, that EXCEED inflation, I believe so. It does no good to get huge wage concessions if the end result is losses for the company and then a reduction if acft and flying etc. Do not misunderstand me. The wages being paid today at "FEEDER" carrier level especially on the F/O side of the house needs to improve dramatically. CA pay especially for the 50+ seat jets ( they are here to stay, deal with it ) certainly needs some improvement as well.
As to the original idea of entitlement.... If the idea is because we are well trained, mostly college graduates, some of whom racked up huge debt to get their ratings we should be entitled to something....I don't agree. Everyone makes decisions with their lives and must deal with the results. I personally believe that if you work hard, play by the rules, pay some dues ( and I dont count training ), hone your craft and with a some luck, many will reach their goals, many others will not. Is everyone entitled to a left seat job making 150K a year...nope... can we all hope for it... sure.
Support your union and or pilot group no matter who you fly for.
10-09-2007 | 04:44 PM
#98
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From: XJT furloughed due to non-ALPA undercutting
Yeah, Joeshmoe I think your standards are a bit low. You're an airline pilot. Demand a bit more please. You are pretty much dragging us down by thinking that all the "dues" you pay are ok.
10-09-2007 | 05:02 PM
#99
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From: 170 babysitter
Buddy, stating it is I who is bringing down this industry goes to show your ignorance and lack of respect for your fellow pilots. When was the last time you spoke to your local MEC rep about your feeling of being ripped off by (insert airline here)? When was the last time you gave suggestions at an open round table with ALPA reps or voiced YOUR grievances? I HAVE so please PLEASE explain to me again how it is I who am bringing down the industry when I demand better working conditions and pay with my voice and don't just sit around crying about it waiting for others to take action......and yes all the while paying my normal dues just like anyone else with high expectations for my future.
10-09-2007 | 05:36 PM
#100
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From: ERJ CA
Herc, I mean all due respect- you provide a very good argument. I hope it is ok if I contrast a couple of your points for the sake of friendly debate? In return, feel free to excerpt anything I write... I will try to keep yours in context as best a possible. Let me know if I step out of line...
Again, there were a few things you said that I agree with and others I do not... I hope we get to continue the conversation in good spirit. Ciao!
--Is everyone entitled to a great paying job at the Legacy of their choosing? HELL NO....
[[I looked at this and modified it a bit: "Is everyone entitled to a great paying job." I ask in return, as a highly trained pilot why not? Every person who shoulders the responsibility we do ought to make the BIG bucks. Are longshoremen as highly trained? Are truck drivers more trained than we are? Those jobs pay out a lot of money that a regional job or even mainline job does not. Is it disproportionate? Hmm. I don't know if that comparison really is apples/oranges what with their unions and all.]]
--My personal opinion is that if you are getting into this business simply because of the money I think you will be disappointed even in the long term if you get to a mainline pax or cargo operation.
[[Very true, and this is part of the pilot shortage we are experiencing today.]]
--Many comparisons have been made in this thread to jobs in other sectors and how well they do or do not pay. Remember something, those folks are paid and get raises and get promotions based on excelling in their field ( yes there are exceptions, there always are ) but generally in the outside world you earn more because you have proven yourself valuable and are promoted you do what you do very well, not adequate or just enough to get by but truly do it well... We in our industry however get programed pay raises based on equipment and length of service, and get promoted ( CA upgrade ) based almost exclusively on seniority. Theoretically you could be the crappiest pilot for the company ( and still pass your checkrides ) and if you stay with it long enough you may one day be the #1 guy...
[[Not sure this is true. Being able to play office politics is not necessarily an indication of how good you are at your job; but those folks who talk a better talk consistently make it up the ladder in office settings. Further, I think the average truck driver or longshoreman does not get promoted in that way, and they make a lot more than we do. Also, the seniority thing (I think you would agree) is nice because it levels the playing field by minimizing the political aspect of promotion and pay increase. As unionized pilots, we ask for collective raises every 3-5 years depending on contract lengths. Heck, if someone can pass a CA upgrade and type-ride, they are pretty dang good in my book.]]
--We have created a system and we must live within it.
[[Had I my druthers, the RLA would go bye bye, wouldn't you agree? I mean, we did not create that aspect of the system and it sure fouls things up to the sway of management's favor.]]
--the avg seat capacity of mainline acft has been rising for 20 years... the avg seat capacity of feeder carrier acft has been rising for the same period of time. The business has changed, it is NOT the business of the 60's the 70's the 80's or even the 90's.....it is what it is NOW.
[[Yes! Too bad the paychecks have not gone that way as well...]]
--We MUST work as cohesive groups at ALL levels of flying to ensure livable wages and work rules...
[[VERY MUCH SO!!! Unity is critical, within a particular group, union and across unions.]]
--The flying public is SO VERY price aware that HUGE wage gains are probably not viable at any level. Modest ones, that EXCEED inflation, I believe so. It does no good to get huge wage concessions if the end result is losses for the company and then a reduction if acft and flying etc. Do not misunderstand me. The wages being paid today at "FEEDER" carrier level especially on the F/O side of the house needs to improve dramatically. CA pay especially for the 50+ seat jets ( they are here to stay, deal with it ) certainly needs some improvement as well.
[[Too bad the paying public does not frown upon HUGE increases in CEO's compensation. What do they risk, paper cuts? Yea, Ornstein has his tit in a ringer right now... because he broke the law. Whose fault is it that the paying public has no concept of what we do and how poorly we are treated: the union who does little if no public communication--billboards aside. Heck, a decent wage increase would simply mean less for the big tycoons and investors. Boo Hoo?]]
--As to the original idea of entitlement.... If the idea is because we are well trained, mostly college graduates, some of whom racked up huge debt to get their ratings we should be entitled to something....I don't agree. Everyone makes decisions with their lives and must deal with the results. I personally believe that if you work hard, play by the rules, pay some dues ( and I dont count training ), hone your craft and with a some luck, many will reach their goals, many others will not. Is everyone entitled to a left seat job making 150K a year...nope... can we all hope for it... sure.
[[Here we will have to agree to disagree. Attorneys reap the fruits of their labor in training and college. So do doctors... why not us?
--Support your union and or pilot group no matter who you fly for.
[[Yes, yes and yes.]]
[[I looked at this and modified it a bit: "Is everyone entitled to a great paying job." I ask in return, as a highly trained pilot why not? Every person who shoulders the responsibility we do ought to make the BIG bucks. Are longshoremen as highly trained? Are truck drivers more trained than we are? Those jobs pay out a lot of money that a regional job or even mainline job does not. Is it disproportionate? Hmm. I don't know if that comparison really is apples/oranges what with their unions and all.]]
--My personal opinion is that if you are getting into this business simply because of the money I think you will be disappointed even in the long term if you get to a mainline pax or cargo operation.
[[Very true, and this is part of the pilot shortage we are experiencing today.]]
--Many comparisons have been made in this thread to jobs in other sectors and how well they do or do not pay. Remember something, those folks are paid and get raises and get promotions based on excelling in their field ( yes there are exceptions, there always are ) but generally in the outside world you earn more because you have proven yourself valuable and are promoted you do what you do very well, not adequate or just enough to get by but truly do it well... We in our industry however get programed pay raises based on equipment and length of service, and get promoted ( CA upgrade ) based almost exclusively on seniority. Theoretically you could be the crappiest pilot for the company ( and still pass your checkrides ) and if you stay with it long enough you may one day be the #1 guy...
[[Not sure this is true. Being able to play office politics is not necessarily an indication of how good you are at your job; but those folks who talk a better talk consistently make it up the ladder in office settings. Further, I think the average truck driver or longshoreman does not get promoted in that way, and they make a lot more than we do. Also, the seniority thing (I think you would agree) is nice because it levels the playing field by minimizing the political aspect of promotion and pay increase. As unionized pilots, we ask for collective raises every 3-5 years depending on contract lengths. Heck, if someone can pass a CA upgrade and type-ride, they are pretty dang good in my book.]]
--We have created a system and we must live within it.
[[Had I my druthers, the RLA would go bye bye, wouldn't you agree? I mean, we did not create that aspect of the system and it sure fouls things up to the sway of management's favor.]]
--the avg seat capacity of mainline acft has been rising for 20 years... the avg seat capacity of feeder carrier acft has been rising for the same period of time. The business has changed, it is NOT the business of the 60's the 70's the 80's or even the 90's.....it is what it is NOW.
[[Yes! Too bad the paychecks have not gone that way as well...]]
--We MUST work as cohesive groups at ALL levels of flying to ensure livable wages and work rules...
[[VERY MUCH SO!!! Unity is critical, within a particular group, union and across unions.]]
--The flying public is SO VERY price aware that HUGE wage gains are probably not viable at any level. Modest ones, that EXCEED inflation, I believe so. It does no good to get huge wage concessions if the end result is losses for the company and then a reduction if acft and flying etc. Do not misunderstand me. The wages being paid today at "FEEDER" carrier level especially on the F/O side of the house needs to improve dramatically. CA pay especially for the 50+ seat jets ( they are here to stay, deal with it ) certainly needs some improvement as well.
[[Too bad the paying public does not frown upon HUGE increases in CEO's compensation. What do they risk, paper cuts? Yea, Ornstein has his tit in a ringer right now... because he broke the law. Whose fault is it that the paying public has no concept of what we do and how poorly we are treated: the union who does little if no public communication--billboards aside. Heck, a decent wage increase would simply mean less for the big tycoons and investors. Boo Hoo?]]
--As to the original idea of entitlement.... If the idea is because we are well trained, mostly college graduates, some of whom racked up huge debt to get their ratings we should be entitled to something....I don't agree. Everyone makes decisions with their lives and must deal with the results. I personally believe that if you work hard, play by the rules, pay some dues ( and I dont count training ), hone your craft and with a some luck, many will reach their goals, many others will not. Is everyone entitled to a left seat job making 150K a year...nope... can we all hope for it... sure.
[[Here we will have to agree to disagree. Attorneys reap the fruits of their labor in training and college. So do doctors... why not us?
--Support your union and or pilot group no matter who you fly for.
[[Yes, yes and yes.]]
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