instructing on the side?
#12
For what its worth, the FAA considers flight time at a "free or reduced rate" to be "compensation". Therefore if you are logging the time it is still considered compensated flight for hire unless you are paying your pro rata share. So the trick is to find a place that will pay you under the table and not log it or to log the time but pay your pro rata share (but then whats the point?).
With no set limitations actually listed in the regs there's enough gray area to say just about anything if you want to be anal enough. Our GOM is FAA approved and it says in bold print that instruction is legal so long as it's not for hire. There are people here that have done it to meet the 2500hr requirement. They were hired low time and when upgrades went down to 2yrs and under several needed more time.
In the interest of this debate I went and found the ONLY written info that I could on the subject.
10/23/1997 Requesting An Interpretation Of What Is Considered Compensation Under Section 61.113 Of The Far,Contd.
Dear Mr. Harrington:
Thank you for your letter dated July 16, 1997, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), on behalf of the Confederate Air Force (CAF), requesting an interpretation of what is considered compensation under section 61.113 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR 61.113, formerly 14 CFR 61.118). You also request an opinion regarding the necessary medical certification for pilots conducting operations for the CAF at airshows and other aviation events.
In your letter you state the following: the CAF owns, maintains, and operates a number of aircraft throughout the Country and members of the CAF volunteer to fly these aircraft, without compensation, to various CAF and other aviation events. The CAF aircraft flown to these aviation events are used as static displays or used to perform fly–by activities before those in attendance at the event. During the course of the airshow or aviation event, these CAF pilot volunteers may receive lodging, use of cars for local transportation, meals, or other minor amenities (e.g. hats, T–shirts, programs, etc.); nothing more than other CAF volunteers who are not flying CAF aircraft. You ask whether the above is considered compensation under section 61.113, and whether the above flying activities are permissible if the CAF volunteer holds either a private pilot certificate and a third–class medical certificate or a commercial pilot certificate, or airline transport pilot certificate, and a third–class medical certificate. The answers to these questions are discussed below.
Section 61.113 sets forth the privileges and limitations of the holder of a private pilot certificate. That section states, in pertinent part, that a person who holds a private pilot certificate may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. Section 61.113 does provide for exceptions to the above (incidental business activity, expense sharing, charitable airlifts, search and location missions, glider towing), however, none of the exceptions are applicable based on the facts presented in your letter.
Section 61.133 (14 CFR 61.133) sets forth the privileges and limitations of the holder of a commercial pilot certificate. That section states, in pertinent part, that a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate and who is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation, may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying persons or property for compensation or hire; and that person may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
Section 61.23 (14 CFR 61.23) sets forth the medical certificate requirements (first–class, second–class, third–class, or no medical certificate) when conducting various pilot operations. That section states, in pertinent part, that a person must hold at least a second–class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate and at least a third–class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate.
In order for a person to act as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire, a pilot must have at least a commercial pilot certificate and a second–class medical certificate. If no compensation or hire is involved, then a person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft with a private pilot certificate and a third–class medical certificate.
In determining what is considered compensation, it has been the FAA's long–standing policy to define compensation in very broad terms. For example, any reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), if conditioned upon the pilot operating the aircraft, would constitute compensation. In addition, the building up of flight time may be compensatory in nature if the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft. While it could be argued that the accumulation of flight time is not always of value to the pilot involved, the FAA does not consider it appropriate to enter into a case–by–case analysis to determine whether the logging of time is of value to a particular pilot, or what the pilot's motives or intentions are on each flight.
Based on the facts provided in your letter, there are several areas where the CAF volunteers may be receiving compensation. First, you state that the CAF owns, maintains, and operates a number of aircraft throughout the country and that members of CAF fly these aircraft to various CAF and other aviation events. You state that these pilots receive no compensation, however, you do not state whether these pilots pay the operating cost to ferry the aircraft from where they are based to the various CAF and other aviation events. If these pilots are not paying the costs of operating the aircraft while ferrying the aircraft, then the building up of flight time would be considered compensation. To avoid compensation, these pilots could either not log the flight time or they could log the flight time while bearing the full cost, including fuel and oil, for ferrying the aircraft.
Second, you state that during the course of the airshow or aviation event, CAF volunteers may receive lodging, use of cars for local transportation, meals, or other minor amenities. The determining factor in whether these items would be considered compensation is whether they are conditioned upon the CAF volunteer ferrying the CAF aircraft to the airshow or aviation event, or operating the CAF aircraft at the airshow or aviation event. In other words, if the CAF volunteers did not ferry CAF aircraft to the event, or operate the CAF aircraft at the event, would the CAF still provide these volunteers with lodging, transportation, meals, etc. If the CAF would provide the above amenities to these CAF volunteers even if they did not ferry or operate the CAF aircraft, then the amenities would not be considered compensation. If, however, the above amenities are conditioned upon the CAF volunteers ferrying or operating the CAF aircraft at the airshow or aviation event then the amenities would be considered compensation.
With respect to the necessary medical certification for pilots operating the CAF aircraft at airshows and other aviation events, the determining factor is what privileges the pilot will be exercising. If the pilot is exercising commercial pilot privileges (e.g. receiving compensation), then the pilot must hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and a second–class medical certificate. If the pilot is exercising private pilot privileges (e.g. not receiving compensation), then the pilot must hold at least a private pilot certificate and a third–class medical certificate. As stated earlier, section 61.23 explains the necessary medical certification requirements for various pilot operations.
I trust that the foregoing satisfactorily responds to your questions. This opinion has been coordinated with Flight Standards.
Sincerely,
s/
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Dear Mr. Harrington:
Thank you for your letter dated July 16, 1997, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), on behalf of the Confederate Air Force (CAF), requesting an interpretation of what is considered compensation under section 61.113 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR 61.113, formerly 14 CFR 61.118). You also request an opinion regarding the necessary medical certification for pilots conducting operations for the CAF at airshows and other aviation events.
In your letter you state the following: the CAF owns, maintains, and operates a number of aircraft throughout the Country and members of the CAF volunteer to fly these aircraft, without compensation, to various CAF and other aviation events. The CAF aircraft flown to these aviation events are used as static displays or used to perform fly–by activities before those in attendance at the event. During the course of the airshow or aviation event, these CAF pilot volunteers may receive lodging, use of cars for local transportation, meals, or other minor amenities (e.g. hats, T–shirts, programs, etc.); nothing more than other CAF volunteers who are not flying CAF aircraft. You ask whether the above is considered compensation under section 61.113, and whether the above flying activities are permissible if the CAF volunteer holds either a private pilot certificate and a third–class medical certificate or a commercial pilot certificate, or airline transport pilot certificate, and a third–class medical certificate. The answers to these questions are discussed below.
Section 61.113 sets forth the privileges and limitations of the holder of a private pilot certificate. That section states, in pertinent part, that a person who holds a private pilot certificate may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. Section 61.113 does provide for exceptions to the above (incidental business activity, expense sharing, charitable airlifts, search and location missions, glider towing), however, none of the exceptions are applicable based on the facts presented in your letter.
Section 61.133 (14 CFR 61.133) sets forth the privileges and limitations of the holder of a commercial pilot certificate. That section states, in pertinent part, that a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate and who is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation, may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying persons or property for compensation or hire; and that person may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
Section 61.23 (14 CFR 61.23) sets forth the medical certificate requirements (first–class, second–class, third–class, or no medical certificate) when conducting various pilot operations. That section states, in pertinent part, that a person must hold at least a second–class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate and at least a third–class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate.
In order for a person to act as pilot in command of an aircraft for compensation or hire, a pilot must have at least a commercial pilot certificate and a second–class medical certificate. If no compensation or hire is involved, then a person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft with a private pilot certificate and a third–class medical certificate.
In determining what is considered compensation, it has been the FAA's long–standing policy to define compensation in very broad terms. For example, any reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), if conditioned upon the pilot operating the aircraft, would constitute compensation. In addition, the building up of flight time may be compensatory in nature if the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft. While it could be argued that the accumulation of flight time is not always of value to the pilot involved, the FAA does not consider it appropriate to enter into a case–by–case analysis to determine whether the logging of time is of value to a particular pilot, or what the pilot's motives or intentions are on each flight.
Based on the facts provided in your letter, there are several areas where the CAF volunteers may be receiving compensation. First, you state that the CAF owns, maintains, and operates a number of aircraft throughout the country and that members of CAF fly these aircraft to various CAF and other aviation events. You state that these pilots receive no compensation, however, you do not state whether these pilots pay the operating cost to ferry the aircraft from where they are based to the various CAF and other aviation events. If these pilots are not paying the costs of operating the aircraft while ferrying the aircraft, then the building up of flight time would be considered compensation. To avoid compensation, these pilots could either not log the flight time or they could log the flight time while bearing the full cost, including fuel and oil, for ferrying the aircraft.
Second, you state that during the course of the airshow or aviation event, CAF volunteers may receive lodging, use of cars for local transportation, meals, or other minor amenities. The determining factor in whether these items would be considered compensation is whether they are conditioned upon the CAF volunteer ferrying the CAF aircraft to the airshow or aviation event, or operating the CAF aircraft at the airshow or aviation event. In other words, if the CAF volunteers did not ferry CAF aircraft to the event, or operate the CAF aircraft at the event, would the CAF still provide these volunteers with lodging, transportation, meals, etc. If the CAF would provide the above amenities to these CAF volunteers even if they did not ferry or operate the CAF aircraft, then the amenities would not be considered compensation. If, however, the above amenities are conditioned upon the CAF volunteers ferrying or operating the CAF aircraft at the airshow or aviation event then the amenities would be considered compensation.
With respect to the necessary medical certification for pilots operating the CAF aircraft at airshows and other aviation events, the determining factor is what privileges the pilot will be exercising. If the pilot is exercising commercial pilot privileges (e.g. receiving compensation), then the pilot must hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and a second–class medical certificate. If the pilot is exercising private pilot privileges (e.g. not receiving compensation), then the pilot must hold at least a private pilot certificate and a third–class medical certificate. As stated earlier, section 61.23 explains the necessary medical certification requirements for various pilot operations.
I trust that the foregoing satisfactorily responds to your questions. This opinion has been coordinated with Flight Standards.
Sincerely,
s/
Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
I told him that according to the advisory circulars pertaining to a commercial license it discuses what compensation for hire is. In no part does it talk about flight time. He told me he wasn't at liberty to answer anymore questions on the subject, basically he had no clue, and that I'd have to contact the FAA's legal department. I told him I thought that's what all of you were . He laughed a little and said if I'm looking for cut and dry answers I'm not going to get them. To go contact my regional FSDO (Houston) and get something in writing from them. Guess he was just passing the buck. Talk about a ****off. I hate how they never have an answer for anything. Or if they do it's rebutted in 10 different places.
Has anyone seen "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"? If so... That's the FAA.
I've contacted the FAA, AOPA, sent my Aviation Law prof who's a practicing lawyer, and asked a multitude of other instructors/pilots and I've never had a solid answer from any of them.
My interpretation is this. A private pilot cannot fly for "compensation or hire". Only a commercial pilot can do that. Since flying for compensation or hire requires exercising a commercial pilot's license, which would in turn require a 2nd class medical, yet you can instruct with a 3rd class means that it isn't for compensation or hire. <--Sorry I just couldn't find a way to word it any better.
How can flight time be compensation when you aren't required to have a 2nd class medical to get it(CFI)? What if the only flying you do is for charity and need to log that time to meet the FAA proficiency requirements? What about missionary pilots who donate their time flying Beech 18's and DC3s, that they don't own, delivering goods to the needy/poor in hard to reach areas? How are they to stay proficient in the aircraft? Some of those guys go on several month rotations. How about an accountant flying his aircraft for his company, being paid regularly salary, but logging the hours? What about doing test flights for someone in an experimental aircraft for the FAA demonstration where records of the flights are required? Does your friend have to pay to do the flight for him or should the lesser experienced guy hop in and perhaps kill himself? Or should I do it, let him pay me, then there be "general knowledge" that I'm for compensation or hire to the public and I be charged for "holding out"? What about a kid who's 18yrs old, wants to learn to fly, and his father foots the bill(I'm sure there are a few of us here guilty of that one)? What about my crop duster who has his own planes and 1,000 gal tanks of gas just sitting to fill up out of and his son goes and takes a plane out, we go buzz around, and he puts it back in the hanger? He didn't paid a dime for any of it.
If flight time we didn't pay for is considered "Compensation" because we can use it towards something then half the pilots out there are illegally working towards their privates. Just because some of them in the FSDOs think one way doesn't mean it's right. I'm not saying to go out and break any regs I'm just saying a well written letter expressing all the loopholes in this flawed explanation, at best, isn't out of order. The biggest fear in aviation is the FAA because they can interpret the regs how they see fit. Regs shouldn't be up for interpretation. They should be cut and dry, black and white, and well in depth descriptions/explanations. Not full of holes we can fill one way and they can fill another.
It's all BS. The only thing they could tell me that I'd believe with certainty is that they just LIVE to take everything fun out of avaition and turn it into the equivalent of doing "Sit and be Fit".
PS. I don't teach English for a reason so leave me alone.
Last edited by ToiletDuck; 02-15-2008 at 09:19 PM.
#13
You show me written language about something like this and I'll show written language showing it another way. All it will take is a little googling. There's no reg that's safe from the interpretation of the FAA
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Wow Toilet, quite a diatribe there. Must have been up most of night banging that one out
Seriously though, despite the fact that I rarely agree with you, I agree with you here. The FAA is famous for interpreting the rules to their full advantage. I also agree with some of your examples of what seem like, on the surface at least, to be clear cases of illegal flight for hire. But the truth of the matter is that all of your examples are scenarios that the FAA has dealt with and ruled on and precedent has been set. So your strongly worded letter, while nice, would not have a leg to stand on.
You posted a letter from the FAA which very clearly showed an interpretation of the rules for flying for "compensation or hire". While you may not agree with it, that is how the FAA interprets it and how they have consistently interpreted it. While it may seem like you get the blow off or a wishy-washy answer when you call the FAA asking them a question in passing, I can GUARANTEE you that if you ended up in court or in front of an administrative law judge you would get a concrete answer from the FAA. And it would be somewhere along the lines of how they have ALWAYS interpreted the rules governing flying for compensation or hire.
Lets be realistic here. If you fly for a 121 or 135 carrier where there are set limits on the amount of flying you can do for hire in a year you are opening yourself up to a HOST of grey areas and interpretations of regulations from both the company AND the FAA that have HISTORICALLY and with multiple precedents set that are NOT in your favor. So I would ask "Why bother?" Just for a few lousy hours in a 172? Maybe a couple hundred bucks? You would expose yourself to possible litigation, termination from your airline employment and possible certificate action? You may think you're right but you are not the FAA and you are not an ALJ. So if a few hours extra in your logbook or a couple hundred extra bucks in your pocket are worth a sticky situation and a long, protracted legal battle with an aviation lawyer (who are rare, therefore expensive) then go for it. Personally, I wouldn't touch that mess with a 10 foot pole.
Seriously though, despite the fact that I rarely agree with you, I agree with you here. The FAA is famous for interpreting the rules to their full advantage. I also agree with some of your examples of what seem like, on the surface at least, to be clear cases of illegal flight for hire. But the truth of the matter is that all of your examples are scenarios that the FAA has dealt with and ruled on and precedent has been set. So your strongly worded letter, while nice, would not have a leg to stand on.
You posted a letter from the FAA which very clearly showed an interpretation of the rules for flying for "compensation or hire". While you may not agree with it, that is how the FAA interprets it and how they have consistently interpreted it. While it may seem like you get the blow off or a wishy-washy answer when you call the FAA asking them a question in passing, I can GUARANTEE you that if you ended up in court or in front of an administrative law judge you would get a concrete answer from the FAA. And it would be somewhere along the lines of how they have ALWAYS interpreted the rules governing flying for compensation or hire.
Lets be realistic here. If you fly for a 121 or 135 carrier where there are set limits on the amount of flying you can do for hire in a year you are opening yourself up to a HOST of grey areas and interpretations of regulations from both the company AND the FAA that have HISTORICALLY and with multiple precedents set that are NOT in your favor. So I would ask "Why bother?" Just for a few lousy hours in a 172? Maybe a couple hundred bucks? You would expose yourself to possible litigation, termination from your airline employment and possible certificate action? You may think you're right but you are not the FAA and you are not an ALJ. So if a few hours extra in your logbook or a couple hundred extra bucks in your pocket are worth a sticky situation and a long, protracted legal battle with an aviation lawyer (who are rare, therefore expensive) then go for it. Personally, I wouldn't touch that mess with a 10 foot pole.
Last edited by freezingflyboy; 02-16-2008 at 07:17 AM.
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Do you know how most people get caught for illegal 135 operations (holding out)? They get turned in by other operators on the airport who feel their business is threatened by someone who isn't following the rules. How do you think you'd get caught for something like this? My guess would be some CFI upset with what you're doing who may have a basic knowledge of the rules governing flying for hire.
#17
To me this says it all.
Flight time logged, that you didn't pay for, is considered compensatory. They say the FAA does not handle it on a case by case basis. So this broad/general statement is all we're getting. All the things I listed would be considered illegal by this. I worked all through college to pay my rent/tuition but my parents did pay for my flight training. According to this that was illegal. BS.
In determining what is considered compensation, it has been the FAA's long–standing policy to define compensation in very broad terms. For example, any reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), if conditioned upon the pilot operating the aircraft, would constitute compensation. In addition, the building up of flight time may be compensatory in nature if the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft. While it could be argued that the accumulation of flight time is not always of value to the pilot involved, the FAA does not consider it appropriate to enter into a case–by–case analysis to determine whether the logging of time is of value to a particular pilot, or what the pilot's motives or intentions are on each flight.
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,802
Do you know how most people get caught for illegal 135 operations (holding out)? They get turned in by other operators on the airport who feel their business is threatened by someone who isn't following the rules. How do you think you'd get caught for something like this? My guess would be some CFI upset with what you're doing who may have a basic knowledge of the rules governing flying for hire.
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
Flight time logged, that you didn't pay for, is considered compensatory. They say the FAA does not handle it on a case by case basis. So this broad/general statement is all we're getting. All the things I listed would be considered illegal by this. I worked all through college to pay my rent/tuition but my parents did pay for my flight training. According to this that was illegal. BS.
Now, when it comes to flying an aircraft in any sort of business arrangement (like when you are working as a CFI, charter pilot, pipeline patrol, traffic watch, etc) the FAA now cares about who paid for it and who is getting compensation.
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 7ER B...whatever that means.
Posts: 3,966
To make a long, confusing story less confusing, the FAA doesn't care if you split the cost of the flight as long as both of you have a common purpose for making the flight. In my case, my friend and I did not share a common purpose for the flight from A to B (he was going there to get laid and I just wanted someone to share costs with and a stop to stretch my legs. Hmmm...maybe if I had slept with his girlfriend, the FAA guy would've taken a different view...Didn't think about that).
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chuckc
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11-10-2005 05:10 PM