Lynx Dirty Little Secret!!
03-18-2008 | 02:19 PM
#21
Used to get weekends off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
From: BusFo
I understand that the nature of training contracts in and of itself will make my position unpopular, but what you've failed to understand here is that this company has a culture that it is trying to preserve. They want happy people who are fun to work with.
I want to work at a company that looks out for it's employees in that manner. I want to work at a place with people who are fun to work with and professional.....not a place full of flying "gods" and arrogant jerks who think that being pretentious is considered "professional."
Grown-up, responsible and confident pilots deal with setbacks like a "quiet professional." I seem to remember that tern being coined on this very web site.
In an industry packed with know-it-all, whining, full-of-themself j@ckasses, I'd like to work for a company that cares enough about it's employees and it's company culture to weed these types out before they hit ground school.
What is described in the original post is one way that one company did just that.
I mean, seriously, if you had an applicant calling and confronting you about an oversight, what would you think? This is normally the stage of the game where you send the interviewer a "thank you" letter even if he told you that you were the worst applicant that they had seen.
Being confrontational before you've even started training is just not a smart thing to do.
Regarding it being his perogative: Of course it's his right.....where did I say that it wasn't? I simply think that it's evidence of the very sort of undesirable personality trait that Lynx HR apparently detected and didn't like.
I want to work at a company that looks out for it's employees in that manner. I want to work at a place with people who are fun to work with and professional.....not a place full of flying "gods" and arrogant jerks who think that being pretentious is considered "professional."
Grown-up, responsible and confident pilots deal with setbacks like a "quiet professional." I seem to remember that tern being coined on this very web site.
In an industry packed with know-it-all, whining, full-of-themself j@ckasses, I'd like to work for a company that cares enough about it's employees and it's company culture to weed these types out before they hit ground school.
What is described in the original post is one way that one company did just that.
I mean, seriously, if you had an applicant calling and confronting you about an oversight, what would you think? This is normally the stage of the game where you send the interviewer a "thank you" letter even if he told you that you were the worst applicant that they had seen.
Being confrontational before you've even started training is just not a smart thing to do.
Regarding it being his perogative: Of course it's his right.....where did I say that it wasn't? I simply think that it's evidence of the very sort of undesirable personality trait that Lynx HR apparently detected and didn't like.
A Grown-up, responsible and confident pilots deal with setbacks like a "quiet professional." ? Tell that to ALPA. A set back is being furloughed, a set back is taking a pay freeze, a set back is taking a pay cut, a set back is losing flying to another carrier...etc etc...
A canidate realizing he is required to sign a training contract is not a set back but a lesson learned. Whether he did his homework or not as in this case is irrelevant. I am certain all of us do not have all the details of our current or hopeful employers, noone is perfect. However he did realize it albeit too late. The confrontation term as one mentioned in my opinion may be too strong a term. He inquired on the issue as he should have, and made a personal decision. His fault, possibly; could have been avoided had he reviewed the company, absolutely. Training contract providing everything you mentioned it would in Brady land...not a chance in H**L.
03-18-2008 | 02:24 PM
#22
Used to get weekends off
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
From: BusFo
I think the OP learned some important lessons from this experience, but unfortunately had to learn them the hard way. I know it really sucks for the OP, but hopefully some of the new guys on here can learn from his experience.
First, if you are in the "dead-set against training contracts for any company and any reason" crowd (which I assume means you won't ever apply to SWA since YOU have to shell out $$$ for your type, not just sign a training contract), then you'd better do your homework to find out if the company you're interested in has a training contract. Failing that, I've never been in an interview where I wasn't asked if I had any questions. That's an opportunity to politely and professionally ask if there's a training contract.
Second, if you interview and get an offer the same day, you do not have a "deal," you have a "conditional offer" since they're still going to have to do your background check and golden flow results or whatever else they want to tack on. And as the OP found out, a conditional offer can be revoked. I can't help feeling the OP wasn't quite as professional during his call as he claims since they revoked the offer (although I have heard of someone at Flight Options new hire class a few weeks ago being fired on the spot for asking about the union on the first day, so who knows). As was mentioned, when the OP found out about the training contract and since that seems to be a deal breaker for him, he should have politely declined the offer. As he found out, going off on HR is not going to change the world, just loose the job.
Third, I don't think it was a wise move for the OP to cancel all his other upcoming interviews right after his interview/conditional offer from Lynx. Others may have a different view, but I've always liked to be in the position of having a few interviews lined up and then hopefully having some options to choose from.
Finally, professional avaition is a relatively small community -- be very careful about who you p-ss off today. Tomorrow that person could be the HR or Chief Pilot at the "dream" job you're applying for -- and they DO remember names of people they don't like. I'm not saying it's right or fair, just saying how it is.
First, if you are in the "dead-set against training contracts for any company and any reason" crowd (which I assume means you won't ever apply to SWA since YOU have to shell out $$$ for your type, not just sign a training contract), then you'd better do your homework to find out if the company you're interested in has a training contract. Failing that, I've never been in an interview where I wasn't asked if I had any questions. That's an opportunity to politely and professionally ask if there's a training contract.
Second, if you interview and get an offer the same day, you do not have a "deal," you have a "conditional offer" since they're still going to have to do your background check and golden flow results or whatever else they want to tack on. And as the OP found out, a conditional offer can be revoked. I can't help feeling the OP wasn't quite as professional during his call as he claims since they revoked the offer (although I have heard of someone at Flight Options new hire class a few weeks ago being fired on the spot for asking about the union on the first day, so who knows). As was mentioned, when the OP found out about the training contract and since that seems to be a deal breaker for him, he should have politely declined the offer. As he found out, going off on HR is not going to change the world, just loose the job.
Third, I don't think it was a wise move for the OP to cancel all his other upcoming interviews right after his interview/conditional offer from Lynx. Others may have a different view, but I've always liked to be in the position of having a few interviews lined up and then hopefully having some options to choose from.
Finally, professional avaition is a relatively small community -- be very careful about who you p-ss off today. Tomorrow that person could be the HR or Chief Pilot at the "dream" job you're applying for -- and they DO remember names of people they don't like. I'm not saying it's right or fair, just saying how it is.
03-18-2008 | 02:48 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: What do you have?
My point is that in reality the same people who are continually posting the one liner "never sign a training contract" are likely the same people who would LOVE to work for someplace like SWA. I think the blanket "never sign a training contract" is poor advice. If it's a good company, what's wrong with them asking you to stick around for a certain period of time after they've spent thousands of dollars training you? If it's a POS company, then why go to work there in the first place? Of course the majors don't have training contracts since the competition is so tough to get in, they have little risk that the people coming in are going to leave any time soon. However, if you're going to a place that is traditionally a stepping stone to higher things, why do some of you think the company has no right to try to recoup the money they spend on training you? Most people are going to stay at a job at least a year. If it's not someplace you'd be willing to stay for a year, then why would you want to go there to begin with?
03-18-2008 | 02:49 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: FO
I don't think there is anything wrong with calling and asking questions about a job offer. In some flying positions, these offers are even negotiable!
However, what I think happened here was that the OP didn't call and ask, he called and demanded, called and was unprofessional and abrasive.
If he didn't like the contract he could have backed out, thanking them for the opportunity and he could've even mentioned he didn't want to sign a contract, that's also part of the deal.
Trying to spin a rescinded job offer by a company as a personal decision, unless you are calling somehow causing the company to do so, a personal decision, is completely missing the point.
I think the take home lesson here is that no matter who the company is and the situation that you've found yourself during the hiring process, the best course of action is to remain professional throughout.
Truer words couldn't be spoken, especially in this case.
However, what I think happened here was that the OP didn't call and ask, he called and demanded, called and was unprofessional and abrasive.
If he didn't like the contract he could have backed out, thanking them for the opportunity and he could've even mentioned he didn't want to sign a contract, that's also part of the deal.
Trying to spin a rescinded job offer by a company as a personal decision, unless you are calling somehow causing the company to do so, a personal decision, is completely missing the point.
I think the take home lesson here is that no matter who the company is and the situation that you've found yourself during the hiring process, the best course of action is to remain professional throughout.
Finally, professional avaition is a relatively small community -- be very careful about who you p-ss off today. Tomorrow that person could be the HR or Chief Pilot at the "dream" job you're applying for -- and they DO remember names of people they don't like. I'm not saying it's right or fair, just saying how it is.
03-18-2008 | 03:17 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Hey - a training contract in the military costs you around wings plus 8 years now. After dealing with that - one/two year(s) and $20K for instance doesn't sound that bad 
Now since I'm fairly new to all of this, would someone please tell me why the idea that a company that is going to put a fair amount of money into your training expects you to stick around for a few years?
Yes - I'm coming at this from a military point of view.
Nearly everything you do comes with a pay back time.
1) Get a promotion - stay a few extra years to earn reitrement pay at that grade.
2) Take a bonus - add 6 years to your time.
3) that new fancy PCS - add 2 more years onto your time before you can move on.
What exactly is it about a training contract in the airline world that has people up in arms?
Thanks
USMCFLYR
Now since I'm fairly new to all of this, would someone please tell me why the idea that a company that is going to put a fair amount of money into your training expects you to stick around for a few years?
Yes - I'm coming at this from a military point of view.
Nearly everything you do comes with a pay back time.
1) Get a promotion - stay a few extra years to earn reitrement pay at that grade.
2) Take a bonus - add 6 years to your time.
3) that new fancy PCS - add 2 more years onto your time before you can move on.
What exactly is it about a training contract in the airline world that has people up in arms?
Thanks
USMCFLYR
03-18-2008 | 03:24 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: FO
USMCFLYR,
The simplest way to explain it is that in most cases, the companies who ask new hires to sign training contracts are the ones that aren't as "good" to work for. By "good", I mean, pilot friendly workrules, commutable schedules, etc.
When a company locks in a pilot for a year with a training contract, it nullifies the effect that a bunch of pilots leaving because they hate working there would have, thus making it difficult for any improvements to occur.
TC's in effect are a way to skew the labor economics of pilots, making it more difficult for them to "vote with their feet" when pilots feel they aren't treated well or fairly.
Checko
The simplest way to explain it is that in most cases, the companies who ask new hires to sign training contracts are the ones that aren't as "good" to work for. By "good", I mean, pilot friendly workrules, commutable schedules, etc.
When a company locks in a pilot for a year with a training contract, it nullifies the effect that a bunch of pilots leaving because they hate working there would have, thus making it difficult for any improvements to occur.
TC's in effect are a way to skew the labor economics of pilots, making it more difficult for them to "vote with their feet" when pilots feel they aren't treated well or fairly.
Checko
03-18-2008 | 03:44 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: What do you have?
USMCFLYR,
The simplest way to explain it is that in most cases, the companies who ask new hires to sign training contracts are the ones that aren't as "good" to work for. By "good", I mean, pilot friendly workrules, commutable schedules, etc.
When a company locks in a pilot for a year with a training contract, it nullifies the effect that a bunch of pilots leaving because they hate working there would have, thus making it difficult for any improvements to occur.
TC's in effect are a way to skew the labor economics of pilots, making it more difficult for them to "vote with their feet" when pilots feel they aren't treated well or fairly.
Checko
The simplest way to explain it is that in most cases, the companies who ask new hires to sign training contracts are the ones that aren't as "good" to work for. By "good", I mean, pilot friendly workrules, commutable schedules, etc.
When a company locks in a pilot for a year with a training contract, it nullifies the effect that a bunch of pilots leaving because they hate working there would have, thus making it difficult for any improvements to occur.
TC's in effect are a way to skew the labor economics of pilots, making it more difficult for them to "vote with their feet" when pilots feel they aren't treated well or fairly.
Checko
Look at the realities of operating a business. I have my own LLC for my contract work and pay for my own recurrent training (which is factored into the rates I charge) and that costs around $6K each time. Guys, training is not cheap and companies are in business to make a profit. They can't do that if they're paying to train people who then walk out the door. Training contracts are not in place to "skew labor ecconomics." They exist as a way to help companies ensure they recoup the costs of training.
If it's truly a POS company, then DO NOT go to work there in the first place and the company will go broke and be gone from the picture. However, to say every company that has a training contract is terrible is ridiculous. I assume none of you are going to work for SWA either -- see my post above. There's a bunch of people on this board who are dying to get a job at NetJets -- do you realize they use to have a training contract? The majority of places with training contracts are the types of operators seen as stepping stones to higher things.
I remember the days years ago when guys were telling everyone to NEVER work for the likes of SWA or NetJets. Sometimes I just have to laugh!
Last edited by FlyHappy; 03-18-2008 at 03:52 PM.
03-18-2008 | 03:47 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: What do you have?
Hey - a training contract in the military costs you around wings plus 8 years now. After dealing with that - one/two year(s) and $20K for instance doesn't sound that bad
Now since I'm fairly new to all of this, would someone please tell me why the idea that a company that is going to put a fair amount of money into your training expects you to stick around for a few years?
Yes - I'm coming at this from a military point of view.
Nearly everything you do comes with a pay back time.
1) Get a promotion - stay a few extra years to earn reitrement pay at that grade.
2) Take a bonus - add 6 years to your time.
3) that new fancy PCS - add 2 more years onto your time before you can move on.
What exactly is it about a training contract in the airline world that has people up in arms?
Thanks
USMCFLYR
Now since I'm fairly new to all of this, would someone please tell me why the idea that a company that is going to put a fair amount of money into your training expects you to stick around for a few years?
Yes - I'm coming at this from a military point of view.
Nearly everything you do comes with a pay back time.
1) Get a promotion - stay a few extra years to earn reitrement pay at that grade.
2) Take a bonus - add 6 years to your time.
3) that new fancy PCS - add 2 more years onto your time before you can move on.
What exactly is it about a training contract in the airline world that has people up in arms?
Thanks
USMCFLYR
03-18-2008 | 03:59 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
I'll admit that there is a lot of the business side on here that I don't understand, but it seems that training contracts are in use for everyone except the Majors because for the longest time that was the pinnacle and once you had worked your way up there they weren't worried about you leaving before they got their dimes worth of training out of you; but if you weren't a major (or fractional as it is now) it seems that if you DID NOT have a training contract then someone would hire on to get some type of advance training, upgrade, type rating, etc.... and then turn right around and leave the company without having worked an honest day. Thus the company is doing nothing but paying for the employees training in the simulators and airplane (plus all other associated costs - hotels, food, per diem, etc....) and getting nothing in return.
So....I know what I said above is just too simple a thought and there MUST be more behind the dislike of training contracts that I see posted here.
Btw - I agree that basically having to have a 737 type rating for SWA is a form of training contract and I always wondered about it 20 years ago while I was driving those crews around as a hotel van driver! Why pay for the training yourself when every other airline would train you.
Also - looks like the top fractionals all have training contracts too.
I'm missing something here.
USMCFLYR
So....I know what I said above is just too simple a thought and there MUST be more behind the dislike of training contracts that I see posted here.
Btw - I agree that basically having to have a 737 type rating for SWA is a form of training contract and I always wondered about it 20 years ago while I was driving those crews around as a hotel van driver! Why pay for the training yourself when every other airline would train you.
Also - looks like the top fractionals all have training contracts too.
I'm missing something here.
USMCFLYR
03-18-2008 | 04:21 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: FO
I wouldn't be that iron-clad about it. There are several decent companies that have training contracts in place. There are also some POS companies. The bottom line is that no one is forcing you to go to work somewhere. You need to do your own homework and make your own decisions. Don't go someplace with a training contract and then complain about it.
When a good company has a training contract, it is like insurance, they probably won't need it, but its there if they do.
When a "POS" company has a training contract it works in like I described it. Especially at a non-union company like Lynx, it gives management little incentive to improve working conditions because no one leaves, thus their practices don't cost them any additional training money, they have you.
The problem with a training contract, is that all too often it is almost a punitive tactic. Some employers forget that they owe something back to their employees and having a training contract nullifies the only true and moral economic solution to the employees' problem, finding a new job and leaving.
Our problem lies in the how training contract is used and why it exists, not the simple fact one exists. The way things usually work in this industry, we have to be a suspicious bunch and the existence of a training contract raises red flags.
That being said, I do feel and I think most pilot's would agree that we do owe our employer something when they spend the time and money to train you. Its just a year and I think the majority of us would just stick out the year and get out.
However, no one likes getting taken advantage of, wouldn't you agree?
Also, you are correct in saying that no one forces you to work for a company and we all have to make responsible decisions. In many ways, this incident is a great example of that.
Clear as mud?
Checko
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
